How to bring the colonies out into the open again?

[stefanstr]

I have found a topic on Reddit recently where Tynan said he didn't want to add embrasures to the game because people were walling themselves in too much already. So I thought I'd start a thread where we could discuss how the game would have to change to entice us to play more open play styles.

Some thoughts:
- currently, the crashed ship parts always forces me out. Maybe we need more lingering dangers? Something that appears on the map and stays there until you deal with it.
- I think that mining is currently too fast. It is so easy to mine deep into the mountain that there is no reason to build outside. Not to mention that it is actually cheaper to have a mountain base. The walls are already there and the smooth stone floor requires no materials.

[skullywag]

For me its just the numbers of raiders that needs better balancing, as it stands there's a certain wealth limit and then its pretty much game over. People are always building in preperation of the mass horde that will inevitably trounce them, this is what needs addressing.

[Jaxxa]

Some good ideas so far.
What about adding some subterranean dangers to consider when building a mountain base. Maybe something similar to a Horta http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Horta

A possibly hostile creature that can tunnel through mountains (can spawn / disappear on any square that is next to natural rock). Maybe have it eat metal supply / damage existing buildings or power lines rather than just attacking colonists without reason, but retaliate if attacked and be rather strong.

To counter this and not have to keep pulling colonists to defend your base,
you can line the cave walls with a colonist made material.

But this means that instead of digging a 2 wide hallway and being done, now you have to dig a 4 wide hallway and then construct walls on both sides.

So you have the ability to build mountain bases, but you are spending the same amount of resources as you would on walls to build an outdoor base in addition to the mining time.

[JimmyAgnt007]

I, ever since my first game, have always made a mountain base, i check where the thin roof lines are and make sure not to expose my base under them in the event pods crash through.  I always make my hallways 5 tiles wide, and line them with metal walls.  Antimater reactors (i remove the build outdoors only restriction) I build at the back of my base, at the edge of the maps build-able area.  The entrance to my base is through two types of killboxes that can deal with most anything.  ship parts can be walled off and delt with.  mechanoid raids are the only real concern but no biggie.  food can be grown inside, trade post in the middle of my killbox saves space and give my people reason to go outside to avoid cabin fever.  plus im always recovering crap and mining outside my base so its not much of an issue.  I have no reason to do anything different.

That being said, a Horta would be an awesome idea, I loved that episode! 

To get people out of the mountain, making mining more difficult would just slow down resource extraction way too much.  I did suggest armoured roofing for buildings a while back but Tynan said it would unbalance the game.  Not sure I agree if you make it costly but i get where he is coming from.  Maybe a point defence laser array that shoots down hostile drop pods?  or just shield domes?  Id love to have an outside complex, but it is just far too exposed.

[Shinzy]

For me its just the numbers of raiders that needs better balancing, as it stands there's a certain wealth limit and then its pretty much game over. People are always building in preperation of the mass horde that will inevitably trounce them, this is what needs addressing.

This is the biggest issue with building on the open!

Anyhow! earthquakes, maybe =P tunnels collapsing, yes? Great fun!

[Terramorphus]

Colonist peers into dark cave with flashlight, Runs back to the safety door made at the entrance, closes it, then turns around and says to his other colonists in fear, "They have a Cave Muffalo! "

[skullywag]

Also to add if the cabin fever thought got worse overtime (i know it kinda does) and only showed when under a roof, you would at least need an open air bit inside your mountain retreat or risk breakdowns.

Again ill stress i believe giving the raider balancing some love (which i think is at least partly addressed in A7) plus some more tools (barbed wire, Electric fences ets) would help loads.

[Rahjital]

Why is this an issue? It's a difference between play styles, people who like engineering turret defenses dig into a mountain and people who like using tactics and maneuvering their pawns around build outside. If anything, the lack of knowledge in the community is the problem. People tell the newbies "Build a mountain base and huge killbox OR DIE!" who then repeat it others and eventually everyone believes building an outside colony is only good for seeing how quickly can you lead your colony to its demise.

Outside colonies can be a better choice already, depending on the player and situation. There is no need to give them some crazy advantage just to force people out into the open, let's just not scare them into holing up in a mountain all the time.

(That said, some of the suggestions in this thread sound awesome!)

[ShadowDragon8685]

People wall themselves off and build defenses when they feel they are under the risk of attack. Building walls and defenses is the natural response to threats which come at you on the ground.

This has been true since the dawn of civilization, and it remains true today. Drop-pods didn't help - if anything, they made things worse, since now not only can you come under attack over-land, but you can come under attack from people dropping right in on top of you, even smashing through roofs to do so!

The Dwarven approach is the logical extension - digging a hole (diggy diggy hole, diggy diggy hole!) and being safe(r) inside it.

If you want to change this, then you need to drastically reduce both the frequency and the intensity of raids, or else dramatically reduce the danger of those raids. If bandits behaved less like Borderlands 2 psychos who will fight (nearly) to the last man, and more like profit-motivated opportunists who don't want to die today, and consequently would choose not to attack a well-armed camp altogether, or would retreat after only a few casualties, then fortress-style defenses would become less of a priority in the players' minds. I've been saying that since the beginning.

Other things you can do is buff machine gun turrets. I mean a lot. Make them actually as lethal as hosing an area with an M249 down actually should be, and players will feel that a few of them are an effective perimeter, rather than being laughably pathetic loss-leaders who exist only to draw fire from the well-entrenched colonists hiding in the pillboxes. Suggestions: Give them the range of a sniper rifle and seriously non-stop firing. Like, ten-round bursts with a three-second cooldown between them - and code the intelligent hostiles to really, really want to not get in range of them. (Non-intelligent hostiles, of course, can just get mowed down.) If the bandits prefer to wait and see if maybe the turrets power down before they attack, and otherwise will just leave if they can't find a safe path through the field of fire, then overlapping turret fields of fire alone should be enough in the way of defenses... At least until the power suddenly goes out.

[Tynan]

Good discussion to have. Thanks for bringing this up.

It is a tough balance problem to solve. I think the best, most obvious solution is to put players on the offensive more often. I tried to do that with sieges and the ship part, but I think it's not quite panning out that way with sieges. So maybe I could rework sieges and make them a bit more common, and perhaps add another kind of threat or opportunity that draws people out of their base. Anyone have any thoughts about what this could be?

Adding some further mood penalties for being underground for long periods may be a viable option as well. You can live underground, it's true - but it's really awful to be underground all the time.

[C. Fenderson]

Good discussion to have. Thanks for bringing this up.

It is a tough balance problem to solve. I think the best, most obvious solution is to put players on the offensive more often. I tried to do that with sieges and the ship part, but I think it's not quite panning out that way with sieges. So maybe I could rework sieges and make them a bit more common, and perhaps add another kind of threat or opportunity that draws people out of their base. Anyone have any thoughts about what this could be?

Adding some further mood penalties for being underground for long periods may be a viable option as well. You can live underground, it's true - but it's really awful to be underground all the time.

It's not always awful:

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRz40ksiKdnml9F5Eks3xcHoPimAoQ0UnmX-P0MnIN_ivTKJPeN8w (Source)

[RemingtonRyder]

It's the sheer number of hostiles.  You need to limit the ways they can attack because there are so many of them.

I've been playing with a mod of my own which introduces tougher pawns.  They soak up more points than a bunch of pistol drifters, so the enemies are fewer, but they're better armed.  Sieges are no longer stuffed with piles of snipers.

I actually noticed yesterday that if you wall off completely, grenadiers will attack your walls with frag grenades.  So you're not completely safe behind a set of walls.

Personally, I think the raiders give up too easily.  Instead of bashing at your walls until they do a set amount of damage, if they aren't dealt with they should set up a camp and move supplies in so that they can keep going for longer.

I think it would be more interesting then, if you could leave your base through a secret exit to harass the raiders into leaving.  When I play Minecraft I like to have a piston-operated door which blends in with its surroundings.  Or going back a ways, there was something similar in Battle for Middle Earth.  Maybe we can have something like that in Rimworld so that we're not constantly on the defensive.

[RemingtonRyder]

Also, has no-one thought it strange that raiders, when they commence their assault, can dash half-way across the map without getting so much as a little bit winded?  In power armour, even.  As far as I've seen, there's no penalty for being fatigued apart from the mood dump.

[Johnny Masters]

How, as far as my opinions go, should the game be balanced in this regard:

1) Mining should be slower. Right now mining is faster than most jobs, including wood chopping, which is ridiculous to say the least.

2) Less mineral veins, but they take longer to "tear" down and yield more metal, which will drop in an adjacent square. Those who played dungeon keeper will know what I'm talking about. This way you can carve your mountain better and you can keep the same extraction rate.

3) Armor rating for stuff, numeral, not percentage, although you could use both. So rock shouldn't be shot down by punches or pistol shots (nor similarly strong materials, like most walls and powered doors).
This would empower building outside because doors wouldn't be ridiculously weak and VIP entrances to raiders as it is now.

To counter impenetrable defenses, a climbing tool or explosives (and an "avoid-killbox" AI behavior) would add to the game diversity without requiring massive amounts of enemies.

4) Should slots/ tool slots be implemented, the mining tool would be a nice balance, dwarfing would be impractical without the tool. So, then, you could have random drops: random people, random "starting kit", random map.  Conversely, if you'd really like in a particular time to build dwarftown, you could select the appropriate starting kit at chargen.

This could open a myriad of tactics. A starting kit with a mining tool would mean a quicker path to  entrench yourself, but also it means you couldn't bring Cheryl 2000 the sexy cleaning bot, or the mobile extra expensive Templar C3KL medbay or the M68 Gauss Rifle (military issue only) or, perhaps the Mk.4 UJK "Deus EX" mobile artillery (the one with extra accuracy). Flavor aside, you know, "unique" objects that are chargen obtained only or a long branch of a research path, that will give you an edge (a very particular one) and make your start and middle game different for a couple dozen plays.

5) reduce enemy amount. As per the much requested and a7 incoming fix. But make them more of a constant threat. Make them diverse in their tactics. Some will just raid your farms, for example. So you'll need to keep guards and patrols. You'll need emplacements outside either way.

6) this is a minor, but recently dug walls should provide a small debuff, because you know, they are raw rock walls, ugly and full of spiders. 

Embrasures are needed, dismissing that on the grounds that players will dug- in even more is like saying you don't need power armor because you already have flak jackets. There are a ton of ways to make it balanced and the game even more interesting

Regards,

[Geokinesis]

Have it so if a mortar hits a mountain roof there is a chance of a cave in, crushing colonists and items underneath and turning those spots to bare rock.

This means if in a mountain base you'd have to be offensive lest everything fall upon your head.