How to bring the colonies out into the open again?

[Johnny Masters]

I like that Geo, but i worry it would get messy with the resource/hauling/priorities management, that gets a little hectic as you get more colonists and more jobs are added.

Perhaps if two walls surround a tile [WRW], it would get roofed with "[wall material] support column", whilst a complete walling would create a proper roof, which will give a certain amount of supporting as per previous comments

[jaeden25]

I think everyone is missing the real problem here. I think the lack of defensive choice in turrets, their weakness to explosives, and their high cost to build are too blame.

Not THE real problem, but one of the problems nonetheless. It's not the real problem because if you had better turrets to make it easier to defend open colonies, it would make it even easier to defend inside ones.

It should be one of these: Or open colonies get as many advantages and drawbacks than mountain ones OR building into a mountain is a technological or economical investment. Currently it's neither.

Sieges are too hard to kill at the moment, when they are far away it's hard to get colonists to attack without them having mental breakdowns on big maps. We need a way to them to sustain their needs away from the colony, we have bedspots which are good, but we need some way of taking food reserve to camp out around the siege.

Like other things it depends on the AI director and challenge intensity, but i agree with the mental breakdowns and supplies.
I already suggested that there should be an  "ADRENALINE" mood buff whenever the pawn is within some radius of an enemy and even a small buff when it's drafted.

As per the supplies, I'm together with those who want a (better) slot system, be it general purpose slots or a tool slot or carry slot. Wanna go on the offensive? Pick a few provisions and hit the road. There could be even a new type of cookable/producible food that lasts longer and tastes like nutrient paste and is used in such incursions, perhaps even if someday we get to raid other camps as well. 

Overall i think the moral systems need a lot of reworking, i have a few ideas myself but let's wait for 7 and see what Ty has been cooking up.

Giving us more defensive choices is the best way to make open colonies viable, so what if it makes caves easier to defend. Remember we are not trying to force people into the open. We are trying to make open colonies survival issues better. If people still want to live in a cave after then that's fine but it gives options now.

To make open colonies a viable choice for people you need to fix the problems with open colonies, changing how underground bases work will not solve the problems with open colonies I promise you.

Fix the open colonies, if underground bases are still too good, then it's ok to change underground base mechanics, otherwise it's totally useless.

[Johnny Masters]

We'll have to agree to disagree then. While giving better defenses is a way to make building outside worthwhile, it's useless if it becomes too easy (thus boring) to build inside. We (at least most of us in the topic) are  trying to make building outside more viable, not dwarfing easier while at it.

Or we balance outside and inside (sticks, carrots, features, investments, etc) or we just add goodies to being outside (happy events, specific types of resources that are only in the open, better trade offers, etc).

We really don't want to create another problem while fixing one.

[jaeden25]

We'll have to agree to disagree then. While giving better defenses is a way to make building outside worthwhile, it's useless if it becomes too easy (thus boring) to build inside. We (at least most of us in the topic) are  trying to make building outside more viable, not dwarfing easier while at it.

Or we balance outside and inside (sticks, carrots, features, investments, etc) or we just add goodies to being outside (happy events, specific types of resources that are only in the open, better trade offers, etc).

We really don't want to create another problem while fixing one.

I don't see how any of those idea's help survival outside sorry. I did say you could introduce things to make underground bases harder but it's pointless if it's still too hard to stay alive outside, I'm not sure why you disagree with this point.

[Johnny Masters]

Ah, i understand what you are saying, it's just that i thought toning down the number of enemies is the #1 thing to change n ppls mind, and should be taken into consideration before any further tweakings. By suggesting a slower mining speed, or a mining tool(for example), it already has lower number of enemies in mind. I think It's been mentioned a couple times in this thread alone, together with a more diverse behavior/goal for enemies.

[jaeden25]

Ah, i understand what you are saying, it's just that i thought toning down the number of enemies is the #1 thing to change n ppls mind, and should be taken into consideration before any further tweakings. By suggesting a slower mining speed, or a mining tool(for example), it already has lower number of enemies in mind. I think It's been mentioned a couple times in this thread alone, together with a more diverse behavior/goal for enemies.

Yes it could be a way to go I agree on that, but, it is fun to battle those big hordes so I would rather it be a last resort after other options are explored. Who doesn't want a big epic battle? ^^

[stefanstr]

It would be a big epic battle if we also had 100 colonists. 10 against 200 is not epic in my mind.

[Johnny Masters]

10 vs 200 is not epic, it's wait for it... legendary 

I really like last stands, really do, but a last stand is the climax of the story, not a regular monthly "issue".

The thing is that it's an ever-growing situation. If you get attacked by 200 raiders, you know next month you'll be attacked by 210, or 250.  hence why we need more diverse types of attacks and enemies, while still keeping the last stand or the "horde" type

[jaeden25]

It would be a big epic battle if we also had 100 colonists. 10 against 200 is not epic in my mind.

Yes, some cool defense options would help this.

[Rahjital]

I have to agree that introducing improving defensive buildings wouldn't do much good - even if it did drive people outside, they would just build their own mountain outside. If anything, I feel the defenses should be made weaker - entrentching oneself should bring an advantage, but not multiply your power by an order of magnitude like it does now. Of course, that will never happen as long as we can simply spam turrets and clump raiders together.

To be honest, I would like to see turrets removed or at least changed so that they need a colonist manning them. They are hard to balance, to the point raids are very hard to win without them but a non-issue when you build a proper killbox, and they take away from the atmosphere Rimworld has without them. A few old rusty turrets would be fine, but there's no good way to limit the number of them one can build and the logical thing to do is to spam them whenever possible. Turrets feel like an artifact of old versions, and I think the game would be better if turrets were cut completely and raids were rebalanced to reflect that. The reduction of killboxing effectiveness would make outside colonies more of an option to players.

[JimmyAgnt007]

Maybe a manned turret control console.  Like the comms console.  each one needs to be manned for turrets to work, and can only support say (reaches into thin air) 6 turrets.  or maybe the limit is based on the shooting skill of the user.

this combined with raiders who, once discover a killbox, avoid it and try another way.

[stefanstr]

Cutting turrets out completely... A very intriguing idea. Any modders willing to test it out in practice?

[Johnny Masters]

I like turrets

But i also think there should be a limit. A control console is a nice one, perhaps it requires the research skill, putting those techs guys to good use (might need a new renaming tho). Alternatively, as my skill synergy suggestion, might require research and shooting skills.

6 turrets per console seems like a fair guess.

Actually, even non-manned turret control relays would help a little. Perhaps they simply support a certain number of turrets or they support a certain number of turrets in a given radius.
---
I kinda want killboxes to remain but i kinda hate them aswell, as they are the be all end all defense system

[Dr. Z]

Hell that's a lot of text, so sorry if I'm not the first having this idea, but I just read a post from marvinkosh on the first page and it gave me the idea that raiders could have a strategy. Instead of making the waves bigger and bigger, let them build bases with comm consoles and trade beacons at some point when they realise they can't just rush your colonie. They would now call periodical support drops with food and materials. You could attack them and target their consoles or beacons, maybe they have voulnerable power supply, maybe you can constantly grenade the power conduites. In the late game, they may build walls around their base so you can't just snipe the beacon and even if, as long as the comm console is availible, the drops would come randomly on the map and you could fight to get them.

These are some pretty non-sortet toughts that just came up my mind, but my generall idea is to make the raiders a threat you would have to fight for weeks or even months. A real stakeout with tactics and counter-tactics. Of course this would require a much smarter AI which would be able to analyse your tactics and plan ahead, but I think the gain from it would be worth to be set on an Alpha 8 or 9 todo list.

[Angie]

Good discussion to have. Thanks for bringing this up.

It is a tough balance problem to solve. I think the best, most obvious solution is to put players on the offensive more often. I tried to do that with sieges and the ship part, but I think it's not quite panning out that way with sieges. So maybe I could rework sieges and make them a bit more common, and perhaps add another kind of threat or opportunity that draws people out of their base. Anyone have any thoughts about what this could be?

Adding some further mood penalties for being underground for long periods may be a viable option as well. You can live underground, it's true - but it's really awful to be underground all the time.

Graboids?? 

heh heh