i dont know if i like this...

[milon]

There should be lots of negatives to organ harvesting, but it shouldn't be all negatives. What if my dedicated warden/cook gives a lung to a miner who lost one? Or what if a colonist gives a kidney to save the life of a diseased colonist?  There should be some positives in the right context.

[ShadowTani]

On the subject of mood effects... At the moment you only get a negative colony mood from killing a prisoner by selecting the execute option. Directly gunning or beating down a prisoner, euthanizing them or killing them by removing their organs don't count towards any such negative mood effect - even if it certainly can be considered a form of execution.

Otherwise I must say that I appreciate being able to collect organs for silver due to the more expensive and useful things available to buy now. The amount you get from organs can always be nerfed a bit I guess, but personally I prefer other methods of restricting a feature, for example starting with the amount of traders willing to buy organs. It's okay enough that an industrial trader deal in bionic implants, since it's a technological product, but that doesn't mean it's natural for them to deal in ordinary organs as well.

I'm also currently opposed to having expiration timers on the organs. In the future I might be more positive to that kind of idea, but not in the games current form.

[sunergy]

It seems like the lack of negative mood effects for organ harvesting is one half of the problem. The other half is just the general lack of things to do with undesirable prisoners. At the moment, all you can do with them is sell them into slavery or harvest their organs, and after a certain point the slave traders always stop coming. So naturally organ harvesting is rampant, as it is currently the only course of action other than keeping the prisoners around as a permanent drain on the colony's resources.

I understand that the AI reduces the number of Slave Traders to keep the colony's population numbers in check, as it assumes you will buy slaves. It makes sense to suppress the growth of the colony for purposes of gameplay balance. But doing so ultimately deprives us of the ability to sell prisoners as slaves at the exact moment that we don't need to recruit them as colonists anymore. Being able to sell slaves in the late game though a method that doesn't give the option to buy slaves would be a great way to compromise. Maybe once trading is possible between sites on the planet itself the pirates might be interested in forking over a smaller amount of cash for any unwanted prisoners. They seem eager enough to kidnap people when they get the chance.

And of course, once diplomacy gets expanded I fully expect it to be possible to return prisoners to their original faction for a diplomacy boost. Until we get a peaceful option like that I don't think we should be overly shocked that our colonies are terrible places to be imprisoned.

[Fruit loops]

maybe you could sell prisoners to other factions who don't sell slaves themselves

[RemingtonRyder]

I find that it's always useful to have some prisoners around if I'm playing Ironman style.  Because then if I lose a colonist, I may not have an ideal replacement, but I've got a shot at bringing in someone to pick up the slack. 

[kingtyris]

Does killing a prisoner via organ removal incur the same penalties with your other colonists as death via execution? If not, it should.

[wolfman1911]

Sounds like this might be a fine time to think about how to reimplement that loyalty through fear system that got removed with. . .Alpha 5?

[fraz]

It occurred to me that perhaps organ harvesting and transplantation should simply require more time. In real life, harvesting a kidney from a living patient takes at least 3 hours, and that's with a full surgical team and modern medical facilities. Harvesting a lung would take longer.

Requiring your doctor to devote much of his or her day to a harvesting surgery, thus taking them away from other productive activities (including medical care for other colonists), might provide a reason to not immediately harvest organs from all unwanted prisoners.

[Aenir]

It occurred to me that perhaps organ harvesting and transplantation should simply require more time. In real life, harvesting a kidney from a living patient takes at least 3 hours, and that's with a full surgical team and modern medical facilities. Harvesting a lung would take longer.

Requiring your doctor to devote much of his or her day to a harvesting surgery, thus taking them away from other productive activities (including medical care for other colonists), might provide a reason to not immediately harvest organs from all unwanted prisoners.

I think this is where "rule of fun" comes into play.

I'm pretty sure it takes more than 1 day for people in real life to build a geothermal generator, let alone by hand.

[dd0029]

On the topic of things that should probably give a morale hit, but don't. If a raider has a brain injury or a limb blown off, I will often let them starve to death on the ground out there and my little people will happily clean, rebuild and repair around them with no negatives.

[ShadowTani]

Maybe Tynan should just simply rewrite the current execution mood effect into a "prisoner died" mood effect and have it say "A prisoner died from abuse and neglect under our care, that's worrisome". It would essentially be a simple and effective change that covered every scenario now and in the future as it would trigger from any prisoner that simply died in your prison, no matter what cause.

[JesterBlue]

Every topic about mood and relationship face the same problem of not having a specific entity for your colonist to direct their emotional problems to except for the vague and ominous 'Colony'.
When you harvest organ from anyone, it's like "the COLONY make me cut out his lung with a sharp rock and leave it in an ice box on the floor" while another colonist would be like "organ spilled on floor, must haul to stockpiles". We can deduct that they're all  agreed to do this into this together or all turn to worship the everpresent COLONY which absolve them of all sins with the only  commandments being 'thou shalt not click execute prisoner or sell slave". The others similar negative moods like eat human meat and see corpse are all emotion/mechanical feeling similar to being in the dark or eat raw food, not moral decision.

[ccheuer]

Its basically a tradition now, 1 kidney, 1 lung and if they are useless two eyes and a heart
every prisoner I get first thing I do is check the traits, if the mental break threshold is upped or he/she has a negative affect; out with the heart
I don't know if I like that aspect of getting ridiculous amounts of money for a kidney or lung
all the while the prisoner still is alive and has no grudge against you
at least get a negative effect if your a prisoner and you have a organ removed  + I'm pretty sure you would die with only 1 lung

Hmm, this is actually a good point. I'll have to consider the mood effects of having organs harvested.

I guess it's really context-sensitive though. Though perhaps if they're a prisoner I can assume that they're not happy about it.

I think what you should do however, is have it happen from the moment the operation is queued/the doctor gets into the room. Also, you should then see if you can make it so that all prisoners who were there at the time gets a strong negative when they see that person.

[Goo Poni]

Maybe not when queued because no-one knows besides the omnipotent colony god/colony hivemind/the player and the doctors. Once the operation is done, however, that loyalty threshold (is that visible anywhere in the UI, it's not the mood) should drop through the floor and be on approach for the core of the Rimworld and prisoners who bore witness to it (in the case of big holding cells instead of individual prison rooms) should get a heavy mood debuff and their own loyalty to the colony be shot in the foot as well. I'd expect riots to be breaking out after a couple such operations.

[mumblemumble]

Even if a colonist is injured to the point they cannot normally function, I could imagine that they would fight, possibly try to kill the doctor if they were in enough fear.

This actually reminds me of a book called "all quiet on the western front" based upon WW1 combat when medicine was far less effective and when death happened far more often... There was one scene where the doctors were ordered to amputate a soldiers leg to prevent infection, and the soldier, even though he couldn't walk, threatened to kill anyone who came near him with his trench dagger until his injuries killed him after several nights, and even then the dagger was clenched tightly in his dead hands...

This isn't even just about the organ system, I think there should be times separate from the mental break where soldiers might disobey orders without breaking, simply because they feel it might be unfair, or too much for them to handle.

Also tynan, in your off time, reading that book might be good inspiration, since it is rather gorey, and really reminds me of current rim-world combat in a way. Just my 2 cents though.