Musings on ammo

[TrashMan]

So...ammo.

What to do with it? Should it be modeled? If so, how to keep it simple?

Well, one way could be to to not count individual clips, but total "clips/magazines".

As in - how many times can a weapon be fired before the colonist runs out  completely (a burst counts as 1 shot for simplicity sake).

So, taking a normal loadout of 6 clips, something like a M-16 would have 30*6 = 180 bullets. Assuming a 3-bullet burst as the only way to use the weapons, that gives us 60 bursts before ammo is required. (hence, M-16 having an ammo value of 60) Most weapons would have a similar value (number of uses)

So every weapon would have a normal ammo loadout value like that.

Next, you'd have an ammo crate. For simplicity, it contains all ammo types your colonists need. Let's say it contains 1000 units (of ammo). Once your colonists run out, they would have to get to the ammo crate to re-supply.
Ammo crates can be bought, created and re-filled (by crafting ammo - gunpowder+metal for 10-50-100 units of ammo) and moved around.

Possibility: ammo pouch as apparel. Double ammo capacity, but reduces movement speed considerably.

...

Or you can use the same system but count bullets (180 value for M-16). That might even make more sense, since very powerful weapons (like a minigun..which should be way more accurate b.t.w.) would be huge ammo hogs. In that case the ammo crate storage capacity would have to be bigger and the ammo crafting ratio also.

[Geokinesis]

I think it would be tedious to have to manage ammo for every colonist and you'd have to make sure raiders had enough that they didn't run out and get left with punch stuff.

[Varnhagen]

I could live with a system as simple as that (that sounds awkward and entitled, doesn't it), if the code itself permits mods to add any number or types of different ammunitions and the possibility for guns to use distinct ammo types.
Gunpowder for crafting could be made out of wood, metal and some obscure plant that provides the remaining necessary chemicals. With a workchain in place to produce ammo, Melee would get a boost early game. Threats should be scaled accordingly.

I think it would be tedious to have to manage ammo for every colonist and you'd have to make sure raiders had enough that they didn't run out and get left with punch stuff.

That could be an automated task like firefighting, resting and sleeping. Think of it as a need.

[TrashMan]

I think it would be tedious to have to manage ammo for every colonist and you'd have to make sure raiders had enough that they didn't run out and get left with punch stuff.

When raiders attack they bring food.
Them bringing an ammo crate with them should be easy to do.

In fact, making them expend ammo might be a good tactic - when they run low of ammo, they might decide to retreat!

[TrashMan]

I could live with a system as simple as that (that sounds awkward and entitled, doesn't it), if the code itself permits mods to add any number or types of different ammunitions and the possibility for guns to use distinct ammo types.
Gunpowder for crafting could be made out of wood, metal and some obscure plant that provides the remaining necessary chemicals. With a workchain in place to produce ammo, Melee would get a boost early game. Threats should be scaled accordingly.

Mining sulfur?
Getting gunpowder should be simple enough without resorting to some exotic plants.

As for the first thing, it should be doable. Just set all guns to use a generic ammunition called "ammo" in their file.
You could later change it for different weapons (this might also require different ammo crates, unless you allow for a crate to carry different ammo types)

That could be an automated task like firefighting, resting and sleeping. Think of it as a need.

Or possibly a toggle. Colonists would automatically go get ammo once out.. OR they might charge into melee.

So you might want to bring an ammo crate close to the front lines. Just be careful that the raiders don't steal it.
Speaking of which - why aren't raiders stealing things?

Just have a bunch of savages or thieves run in, grab whatever they can (metal, silver, food, guns, etc) and run?

[Varnhagen]

Sure ming sulfur, might work. But it's another resource that'd have to be placed on the map and would be potentially depletable. Perhaps a long-growing, low yielding extremely odorous variant to complement random sulfur deposits? We don't want a player to run out of pew-pew, do we?

[ParagonTerminus]

I am personally against the idea of implementing ammo at all.

I already have to try desperately to survive 6 Centipedes and 4 Scythers dropping right into the middle of my base when I have unlimited ammunition. Were ammunition to be implemented, and especially with the health system, a colonist running out of bullets would be tantamount to suicide in most situations as he just gets munched up by high-calibre bullets.

I think the current weapons system will work just fine, thanks.

[Varnhagen]

Running out of bullets in a firefight would be part of a system I could manage and do stuff to prevent. It'd be battle-logistics and another layer of immersion.
What if Ammo was introduced and threats better scaled/balanced? Perhaps there were 10 Mechs dropping in on you because a lesser amount would be to easy to overcome with endless ammunition. Or: Perhaps with ammo, the individual threats could be nerfed and still be challenging.

[Johnny Masters]

Running out of bullets in a firefight would be part of a system I could manage and do stuff to prevent. It'd be battle-logistics and another layer of immersion.
What if Ammo was introduced and threats better scaled/balanced? Perhaps there were 10 Mechs dropping in on you because a lesser amount would be to easy to overcome with endless ammunition. Or: Perhaps with ammo, the individual threats could be nerfed and still be challenging.

This

[keylocke]

Running out of bullets in a firefight would be part of a system I could manage and do stuff to prevent. It'd be battle-logistics and another layer of immersion.
What if Ammo was introduced and threats better scaled/balanced? Perhaps there were 10 Mechs dropping in on you because a lesser amount would be to easy to overcome with endless ammunition. Or: Perhaps with ammo, the individual threats could be nerfed and still be challenging.

yep agreed.

i've always wanted ammo (item degradation, weapon/armor manufacturing, etc..) ever since like forevah. a lot of people complain about the scaling of enemy raids, and they seem to ignore the correlation of unlimited ammo and indestructible armor to raid difficulty.

i think it's about time that this game should also include the "logistics" aspect of a battle into the mix.
though honestly, i think it's a bit of a longshot right now.

"logistics" and "internal threats", those are gonna be some pretty hefty updates. it's like back in the old alphas when people keep saying "we want biomes!", while the other half says "no U, biomes are nevah gonna make it to rimworld, because.. reasons!"

and then we got Alpha 6.. lol.. 

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edit :

That could be an automated task like firefighting, resting and sleeping. Think of it as a need.

i like it.

if the auto-replenish ammo is feasible, then auto-repair gear or auto-replace gear (using items on colonist-assigned equipment racks is also feasible)

[ShadowTani]

I'd like the concept with ammunition too, but not so much the idea of having ammo crates to restock at as it feels 'off'. I would like the ability for the colonists to produce their own ammo in addition of buying from merchant ships - some weapons can use the same type of bullets so that it won't be too overwhelming. I do however agree that the amount of bullets have to be more compact for storage reasons, like storing ammo boxes that contain x bullets per box (where x varies between the ammo types). Also being able to carry melee weapons as a secondary weapon would be nice then.

[TrashMan]

Where would you restock from if not from ammo crates? It's where you keep ammo.

Also notices I said the colonists should be able to produce ammo.

And yes to secondary weapon. A backup is always a good idea.

[stefanstr]

I am all for ammo for artillery (mortars, turrets) but I think that ammo for pistols and guns would add too much micromanagement to the game.

I think that the coolest thing about an ammo system would be the additional tension it would introduce: do I have enough ammo to push the pirates back? This would already be achieved if turrets and mortars required ammo, though.

[ShadowTani]

Where would you restock from if not from ammo crates? It's where you keep ammo.

Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought you meant ammo where exclusively in the form of ammo crates? Or was it meant as a container that is more compact than regular storage areas that ammo is hauled into? I agree to keeping things simple, and managing storage of single bullets will get tedious fast, hence why I think ammo should come in ammo boxes. The difference is that while a crate is a huge thing that needs to be hauled around a box is small enough to be carried in a colonists inventory. This is just a personal opinion though, I'm not making the claim it's the better idea - and if it's talk about a container then both ideas is actually possible.

[Mathenaut]

Ammo management doesn't add any depth or value to this game.

a lot of people complain about the scaling of enemy raids, and they seem to ignore the correlation of unlimited ammo and indestructible armor to raid difficulty.

Lifespan of pirates is measured on the order of seconds.  Advantage of limited ammo and armor breaking is wholly on the NPCs - and for what?  'mah realizm'?