My proposal for the turret problem.

[cidjikai]

Seriously, I assume the currently available turret is an automated firearm (using gunpowder based ammo) ; under this statement, I can't see why building personal firearms would be impossible from scratch (blueprints will be more or less the same and since these colonists seems to be brainiacs able to guess how to design explosives, hydroponic stuff and more I can't see why it'd be problematic to adapt these for a personal use) ; plus, the building tools right now allow to make solar panels seconds after landing on the remote moon, so the technical level to make pistol parts is clearly available.

Note that I hope some drastic changes about this when the game reaches beta/ready to launch status : the easy building ability showed in pre-alpha (which is necessary to get a taste of the basic game mechanics) has to evolve into something harsher in the future (I loved someone's suggestion about first using the pods as a source of energy and/or spare parts to build the low tech core of the starting colony)

[Produno]

IMHO:
It's too extreme and some of the points don't make any sense (eg. "remove visual range" or "make them unpredictable" or "nothing else gets powered whilst turret operating").

And if there are any manned turrets - they shouldn't consume any power at all, or very little of it. (these are kinda like manned HMGs. In real life they don't consume any power at all)

I did put 'either or' meaning they are suggestions and dont all have to be used together.
Remove visual range = the yellow circle that shows the range of a turret when placing. This helps stop people placing them in the arc formation for tunnel defences.
Make them unpredictable = i probably should have put unreliable.
Nothing else gets powered whilst turret operating = Isnt this self explanatory? If they take huge amounts of power to operate, your not gonna build many..

IMHO that idea got it better: http://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=650.0

Im pretty sure i put manned turrets?

Though all in all its good to see everyone else also thinks the turrets are a little too much as they stand now .


Edit*

Note that I hope some drastic changes about this when the game reaches beta/ready to launch status : the easy building ability showed in pre-alpha (which is necessary to get a taste of the basic game mechanics) has to evolve into something harsher in the future (I loved someone's suggestion about first using the pods as a source of energy and/or spare parts to build the low tech core of the starting colony)

This is something i was trying to get at in my first post, that although this thread is about toning down the turret problem, it can also be applied to many other things in Rimworld.

[light487]

I definitely like the idea of manned turrets.. basically any machine gun, even a world war 1 age one with hand crank etc, could be converted to a mounted gun. I'd prefer that these not only require someone to control them but for more complex, purpose built gun turrets that they require belt-fed ammo, meaning that it would require you to purchase (or manufacture) belt magazines to arm them.

Auto-turrets could be something that is researched and developed in the end-game though.. or perhaps if one of the colonists is a mechanical genius (trait) for example.. but yeh, manned turrets don't seem far fetched at all.. they seem quite logical.

[cidjikai]

I definitely like the idea of manned turrets.. basically any machine gun, even a world war 1 age one with hand crank etc, could be converted to a mounted gun. I'd prefer that these not only require someone to control them but for more complex, purpose built gun turrets that they require belt-fed ammo, meaning that it would require you to purchase (or manufacture) belt magazines to arm them.

Auto-turrets could be something that is researched and developed in the end-game though.. or perhaps if one of the colonists is a mechanical genius (trait) for example.. but yeh, manned turrets don't seem far fetched at all.. they seem quite logical.

Can't wait for weapon dealing ships selling you good old MG42s ^^

[Galileus]

Speaking of manufacturing ammo belts... ahhh, ammunition as a resource, need to reload or even semi-realistic reload system (loosing left bullets when forced reload). The never-ending story of six-bullets left and six enemies standing <3 Also a powerful tool to balance hi-tech guns.

And when we're at it, shells as a new kind of dirt. Cleaning up your house after an intense firefight would be simply awesome

[ShootyFace]

I really like the idea of manned turrets, and watchtowers, too. I think giving turrets a research tree to get to the current automated turrets is a great idea, along with giving them small HP bumps along the way. Maybe even make it so you have to research them before you can build them at all.

Another thing I think that would make turrets a bit more of a gamble than they are now is to have them shoot flaming debris when they pop. The debris would be thrown randomly in, say, a 10 tile radius. It would shake up combat and make the player have to react to fires in parts of their base away from the firefight. Or perhaps they would cause a power surge when the were destroyed that could short circuit batteries, walls, or anything electronic and attached to the grid.

I would hate to see turrets go, I enjoy using them. Hopefully we can figure something out to make them more interesting and less of a crutch.

[NephilimNexus]

Yes, the basics need to be coverd, guard towers and pillboxes all the way.

I was going to propose that turrets require an operator, but this is even better.  Add my vote.

Another thing about pillboxes: This would open the door to fixed mounts for weapons, along with heavier weapons in which to mount them. 

Guard Tower: 360 degree fire arc, low hitpoints, damage split to colonist 50/50.  Can hold one colonist.  Light (man portable) weapons only.  Requires 5 metal, 20 wood (yes, I'm assuming more resource types being added soon).

Standard Bunker: 135 degree fire arc, medium hitpoints, damage split to colonist 30/70 (bunker takes most of the damage).  Can hold two colonists.  One medium (mounted) weapon spot, second colonist only gets to use what they can carry.  Requires 20 metal, 5 wood, 20 concrete.

Hardened Pillbox: 90 degree fire arc, massive hitpoints, damage split to colonist 95/5.  Can hold one colonist.  One heavy weapon mount (think .50cal or rocket launcher).  Requires 20 metal, 5 wood, 40 concrete.

Advanced Tech: 

Hardened Tower.  Looks like giant termite mound.  360 fire arc, medium hitpoints, damage split 30/70, hold one colonist and one medium weapon mount.  Requires 10 metal, 25 wood, and 40 concrete.


Note that I am not really in favor of turrets being removed entirely.  Turrets already have two inherent weaknesses that seriously offset their advantages.  Namely, that they suck power and second that they explode like an atomic bomb when they die.  Currently, the only way to keep a turret from blowing up your own base is to park them far away from everything - and that requires Power Conduits being left out in the open and exposed.  Any explosive using enemy will usually end up cutting their power in the first shot, intentional or not.

Manned bunkers and towers, however, would not require power nor is there any reason for them to explode when destroyed.  So this gives them an inherent advantage over turrets, with their disadvantage being that yes, you have to man them with colonists and thus put them at more risk than a regular turret would.

Being that's the case, I see no reason why both technologies can't exist side-by-side because when you consider this comparison you will see that they actually balance out against each other.  You can put your robot turret far away from base and hope that you don't get hit by a radiation storm ten seconds after the raiders launch their attack (Yes, I've had this happen.  Result = Game Over) or you can mount a wall of bunkers right up against your base and hope that they didn't bring too many rocket launchers or molotovs.

Point being here that you would have options and variations in tactics beside "Spam the One Turret Everywhere and Hope it Works."  A proper base defense would then, in all likelihood, be some sort of combination of the two systems: Turrets for perimeter defense and bunkers closer to home.

[Galileus]

Turrets already have two inherent weaknesses that seriously offset their advantages.  Namely, that they suck power and second that they explode like an atomic bomb when they die.

If that would only be the case. A minimal spacing fixes the explosions problem and pillboxes stop these pesky explosives throwers. The power is also rarely a problem, and people even came up with closed off circuits charged up once and then reserved only for turrets. As it is now, auto-turrets are godly powerful.

[Kender]

So, Instead of remove turret completely. The OP suggests to make them useless/none-feasible instead?

You know what, you want players to build less turrets? just increase their bloody explosion radius to 5 (from 3), and there you go.

[Produno]

So, Instead of remove turret completely. The OP suggests to make them useless/none-feasible instead?

You know what, you want players to build less turrets? just increase their bloody explosion radius to 5 (from 3), and there you go.

I see youve mastered the art of discussion o0

The point is i (and others) was brain storming ideas to remove the ability to build lots of turrets. Tynan said hes on the verge of removing them, so either help find a way to convince him to let them stay or just agree they should be removed.

[Kender]

I stick to my point.

So, pillbox, bunkers, manned turret. They are still in the category of 'Turret'. The core of this so called 'Turret problem' is still there.

Let's recall what was the 'Turret Problem' again. Yes, they are too good in base defense, but why do we need them in the first place. Oh, right, the unlimited raider parties that constantly thrown at your colony, which always outnumbers you. No matter what are you trying to add to this game to replace turret, the problem is still there, raider-party that outnumbers you are coming and you need superior fire power to survive.

I don't know which part reminds me more of tower defense, the turrets? or the enemies that comes wave after wave to your base?

PS: Colonist with a pistol is a mobile turret too, you know.

[NephilimNexus]

Agreed, so long as we keep getting zerged by endless swarms of raiders... well, I'll just leave this here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQDy-5IQvuU

[RebCom1807]

Just a strange idea from me - What if you had to research the turrets you have now, and the initial ones are just a few servos and a gun strapped in in a 1x1 area? Would certainly give the massive amount of guns laying about a use. Perhaps having to research different mountings (Grenade Launcher, High-Stability Mounting [for M-24s]) and be able to upgrade the turret armor in a 'Quick, patch this on' kind of way. Gun Turret Cooling, then, could give, say, a 10% decrease in fire time, the High-Stability Mounting would increase accuracy for all weapons.. There could be a Camo Sheet upgrade that lets you make it so the turrets are harder for the raiders to see (They need to get closer). The turrets wouldn't get as good as someone with a 15 in shooting, but they would be some help.
Then, once you research everything, you get the turrets that are here now, or possibly something different - Able to mount two weapons? Either way, that's when you'd have the turrets that run the risk of the bigger explosion, jamming (Could be a Fun event to have happen), or just plain draw more power. Or perhaps they can only mount heavy weapons that you would have to either buy from a weapons supplier or get from a Heavy Weapons Squad of raiders. (Colonists could use these too, but they would have to grab them whenever drafted and would move slower when carrying them).

Just my thoughts on the matter. Also, the Heavy Turrets would cost.. I dunno, 600-700 metal to build? Where the Light Turrets would cost the same as they do now, with a grenade's explosion radius when they get blown up.

Maybe the different things for the turrets (Armor, camo, etc) would simply be different bases for the turret.

[mumblemumble]

A huge part of this problem is people who meta game...Whenever any game is played that way (finding / using the absolute best ways to death with everything) the game will of course be easy. For me, I had 5 turrets knocked out by a large raider rush, with people nearby sniping as well. Granted they weren't arranged in the "perfect" way, but people need to keep this in mind... catering to make the game hard to people who meta game isn't ALWAYS the best idea... Granted the multiple AIs might make it a non issue, but meta-gamers will always find ways to make some games easy.

Not necessarily hating on meta gamers, just pointing out that gearing the game to people who find the absolute best way to do everything, and do it ONLY that way is a bad idea.

[Kender]

A huge part of this problem is people who meta game...Whenever any game is played that way (finding / using the absolute best ways to death with everything) the game will of course be easy. ...

...gearing the game to people who find the absolute best way to do everything, and do it ONLY that way is a bad idea.

Can't agree more on this.
Leave the 'problem' as an option. If someone alone feels something is overpowered or wrong, don't use it. This is not a multiplier competition game, as least not yet.