Smithing is SOOOO profitable (Ty requesting design consult here)

[A Space Ostrich]

Perhaps you could limit the amount of silver the Traders have, the mastercrafted sword may be worth 100,000 but the trader only has like 2000 silver because this is a rimworld and he was expecting to sell not buy.

[Tynan]

Well you should keep in mind that the traders you encounter are not interstellar. They'll just be trading with other communities on the planet, or perhaps moons or nearby planets. No glitterworlds will be involved. It's true that you're crafters on some backwater rimworld - and so is everyone else in the economy, including the ship traders.

Trading with factions would be better, but it requires a lot of other work to get that functioning. That's the only reason I haven't done it yet.

You are right that trading is way OP but that's because of all the stuff enemies drop. I'll be solving that separately from this, be mitigating dead raider drops. This question is really just about the player making way too much bank from individual art pieces due to how the price is calculated.

[Veneke]

Well you should keep in mind that the traders you encounter are not interstellar. They'll just be trading with other communities on the planet, or perhaps moons or nearby planets. No glitterworlds will be involved. It's true that you're crafters on some backwater rimworld - and so is everyone else in the economy, including the ship traders.

Oh, okay. I've completely misunderstood what the traders were meant to be then, my bad. I had assumed that they were on some more extravagant route and we just happened to be in the way. If they're more localized then that explains their willingness to purchase and haul some of the stuff that they're carrying.

[Tynan]

Indeed.

In fact, it is a bit weird that they're on spaceships. But they're not on starships.

I'd rather they were ground-based, the only reason they're not is because space traders are much easier to implement. Otherwise I'd have them all come by foot.

[Nasikabatrachus]

I'm curious as to how you guys would suggest fixing this. I sense two separate issues:

1. Art and crafts can become too valuable. The base value of a gold sculpture 40,000. The quality modifier can add insane amounts of value, because it multiplies the entire base value of the item, while not really costing anything to obtain if you have a good crafter.

How to solve?
-Make quality modifier an offset instead of a multiplier. So instead of being x2 it's more like +1000. But how does that work for low-value items like shivs?
-Reduce multipliers a lot. Problem: now it�s quite affordable to buy legendary weapons etc.
-Do a post-pass on prices traders will buy at; if an item is really expensive, we aggressively curve the price down. So player can never make a giant amount of money selling a single mega-item (though buying them will still cost insane amounts).

2. Wood swords are worth too much, just because they take a long time to craft (since crafting time adds value all by itself), even though they�re kind of useless.

How to solve?
-???


Anyone have any thoughts on either of these?

I've noticed that some games sometimes calculate certain values of e.g. weapons based on multiplication of decimals rather than whole numbers. Specifically, a Good Sword might have a X0.50 multiplier on a a base damage value, rather than a X2 multiplier. A Really Good Sword in turn might have a X0.60 multiplier, and so on. Perhaps only a ~Really Legendary Sword~ is worth X5 of the base.

I'm really not a math person by any stretch of the imagination, but it seems to me that this kind of thing allows for better control of value-ceilings.

Of course, I'm not even sure I've analyzed the problem correctly. (Not a math person.)

[Dr. Z]

If there are things the traders carry which cost insane amounts of money for a singel piece, why shouldn't there be a way to make insane amounts of money with a single piece? If you have a really good crafter and enough gold to make a statue, you're just the boss and may desrve getting really large amounts of money.

But to make this more difficult (I didn't read the whole thread so sorry if this already has been suggested), you could incerease the cost of an item in order to have a certain quality. E.g. if you craft a sculpture with default resources, you wont have very good quality. The better quality you want, the more resources you have to put into it (crafter skill counts too obviously).

As for wood swords beeing too expensive due to crafting time: shorten the crafting time. Why should they need long time to be made anyway?

[milon]

-snip-
I'd rather they were ground-based, the only reason they're not is because space traders are much easier to implement. Otherwise I'd have them all come by foot.

I always thought this was an eventual goal.  Maybe it's time for this to be implemented?  After all, everyone trying to survive on a RimWorld isn't going to fork over $200K for something pretty that doesn't help them stay alive.

-snip-
price is affected by demand. demand is powered by the ability to purchase. (ie : a priceless item cannot be bought, simply coz there's no one who can afford to buy it). hence the price of an item is subjectively based upon the buyer's ability to purchase and the seller's willingness to sell..

--------------

anyways, the gist is : an item's price should be based upon the "effectiveness" of the item based upon it's item category.
-snip-

Lots of words ahead, TLDR = self-limiting economy


I really agree with keylocke here.  This is a survival game.  Effectiveness and demand should be the two driving factors for price.  Here's another way to achieve it:

Effectiveness:  Everything has a 'base' price.  The quality and material of a colony-made item are both set multipliers that affect the base price.  The quality multiplier could range from 0.2 (terrible quality) to 1.0 (really good) to 3.0 (legendary) - I'm thinking pseudo-exponential, but not ridiculously so.  (Made up numbers for illustration only.)  The material modifier is unique for the item category (melee weapon, or artwork, etc).  A gold work of art will increase the value, while a gold melee weapon would have decreased value.  Players have to figure out what makes sense and what doesn't.

Demand:  The game could track a 'world economy' in the background.  What's initally 'common' or 'rare' etc could be based on the world seed.  The economy system just tracks the number of each category of item.  The more there are in existence, the more likely a trader carriers it and the more of it they have.  The less common ones are carried in fewer numbers by fewer traders.  Everything the player sells, buys, and consumes affects this economy.  Longswords may be rare (and valuable) initially, but after selling a dozen or so, everyone has one and no one wants them anymore.  The demand multiplier could be a simple linear equation, or you can get more fancy with it if you like.  It would be 'best' if factors beyond the player also affected 'world economy' since the other colonies are also buying, using, and selling things.  Maybe there could even be a rare trade ship from a glitterworld that comes along buying and selling things according to the glitterworld's economy.

I realize this would require some really extensive code changes, head scratching, caffeine, and likely carpal tunnel, but I think it could solve the problem well - and would also add in a type of self-balancing so players don't just do one thing over and over until they can buy the whole planet.

[waldo2000]

I've noticed that some games sometimes calculate certain values of e.g. weapons based on multiplication of decimals rather than whole numbers. Specifically, a Good Sword might have a X0.50 multiplier on a a base damage value, rather than a X2 multiplier. A Really Good Sword in turn might have a X0.60 multiplier, and so on. Perhaps only a ~Really Legendary Sword~ is worth X5 of the base.

I'm really not a math person by any stretch of the imagination, but it seems to me that this kind of thing allows for better control of value-ceilings.

Of course, I'm not even sure I've analyzed the problem correctly. (Not a math person.)

I have to agree that is the solution, instead of a flat out x2 bonus, something like

(Base Value)*(Skill Bonus)+(Base Value)=(Trader Sell for value)

Were the skill bonus is a percent. So it would look something like this:

1000*.125+1000=$1125

In this example $1125 is the value of the item after the craft bonus is applied, this would scale evenly with item values.

Examples cont.:
100*.125+100=$112.5
10000*.125+10000=$11250

So then to find what the trader would buy from the colonists for would look something like this:

(Trader Sell for value)-(Trader Sell for value)*(Trader Profit Margin)=(Trader Buy Value)

Examples:

112.5-112.5*.4=67.5
1125-1125*.4=675
11250-11250*.4=6750

[JordanKlooster]

my solution to the economy problem:

1 give all sell-able items these variables to calculate the price of the item
beauty, the value of the base material, maybe practicality or condition ,and rarity (this could change if people flood the market with wooden swords)

ex: uranium is practical and rare so it would have a pretty high value. But wood sword would mostly be bases on beauty and condition

2 give traders variable for how much they want/need it and this calculates how much they charge
care for beauty, a variable for how much people care about antiques or new relevant items (this could be two separate variables 1 for old 1 for new), how much people want melee weapons or ranged weapons/food/people/supplies



also some suggestions

Can research and make a long range comm tower to offer a large trade, if it peaks the traders interest they will schedule a ship to come by

have to smooth out swamp areas before you can put floors there

can set the percentages for how much someone sleeps/works/ takes a break each day to control peoples health and mental health
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[Tynan]

Ok. I've addressed this on multiple levels for now. Upper-end quality price multipliers are lower. Gold and silver ore come in smaller chunks. Crafters gain skill slower and will have a harder time maintaining high skill. Items produced by crafters at the top end won't be as high quality, usually. Traders have a post-process curve that will drastically reduce the price at which they'll buy really expensive items.

[Booster Gold]

Milon's self limiting economy sounds like it would be perfect.

[Cimanyd]

In the A8 video, you said you could "start a sculpture industry and run your colony on sculpture or crafting." This sounded very interesting, but it's hard enough now (at least since I didn't think to try crafting wooden longswords for money, because that's ridiculous) and it seems like it wouldn't be practical if high-level crafters are harder to get and maintain and they don't make high quality items as much.

Maybe weapons should require less material?

Yes, for granularity reasons different things are measured in different base volumes. 1 wood is like a cinderblock-sized piece. 1 gold is like a small chunk or a coin (of 20x smaller volume).

I don't see how this works with 75 wood to make a mace, 120 steel to make a longsword, etc.

Also, wooden swords really should be worth less because they're useless, in some way. Weapons with low damage wouldn't be worth much, even if they take a while to make.

[litlbear]

love seeing Ty ask the community.

I think that the multiplier could be brought down selling it, while buying it might still be high?

[A Space Ostrich]

Indeed.

In fact, it is a bit weird that they're on spaceships. But they're not on starships.

I'd rather they were ground-based, the only reason they're not is because space traders are much easier to implement. Otherwise I'd have them all come by foot.

At some point in the future I'd quite like to see traders that come by boat. I make a point to always settle on coasts (I'll be switching that to always settling on rivers with a preference to large, nile sized ones if/when the world generation supports that.) as for the short term. Hmm, having the craftsmanship be a multiplier seems off, though it may be a matter of scale not type. Perhaps the multipliers on worth should be in the 1.5 - 1.8 sort of range, with lower craftmanship items actually going down in worth. A barely held together plank on a handle should perhaps be worth .5 of it's base price.

[woolfoma]

umm tynan, I noticed another thing wrong with weapons. unlike art, all swords of the same material but different qualities are treated as the same object, this means that I could have 20 steel longswords and only 1 is legendary, but because of it's placement in my stackpile the traders think all 20 swords are legendary. that's another balance issue with smithing that is way to easy to exploit.