Brain Damage

[Vexare]

Well maybe I branched off into a different topic that coattails nicely on this one because often times I see the chief complaint being similar to what someone said back on page one: "But I *should* be able to counter everything somehow!" - I read that and realized that maybe a lot of players are coming into their RimWorld gaming experience expecting a traditional RTS? I honestly had no idea what RimWorld was the first time I saw it in a blog on a game fansite somewhere. It wasn't until I was browsing for something else and saw Cohh doing a beginner's guide on it that I actually sat down and watched and realized this game was nothing at all like I had first thought and that's when I bought it, on the spot.

I'm one of those poor souls who loves computer games but isn't quite wired right to comprehend the hardcore storyteller games like Dwarf Fortress even though I absolutely adore RPG and storytelling. I also love survival and city building. RimWorld just satisfies so much of that. I haven't played a top-down game in ages so it took a lot to turn my head. I'm so glad I watched Cohh play it. The story is what keeps me here and if things like brain damage and other unfortunate rolls of the dice are part of the process then I'm all for it and love random. I don't like the current forced ending for that reason. It's contradictory to the best of what RimWorld is about.

[Argon]

Maybe brain damage could be made a little more complex than it currently is - damage to the brain does not necessarily mean that a person is unable to walk, talk, eat and use their hands properly. You could get only one of those effects, or all of them, but brain damage does not necessarily turn a person into a vegetable. It seems reasonable to me that a person with minor brain damage could lose the use of their legs (or entire body), but remain relatively coherent, mentally. Or the other way around.

A bit of randomization could make it more interesting I think.

Yes!

Anyone know the case of Phineas Gage  (had a tamping iron blasted through his eye socket and proceeded to lose his inhibition, respect, and social skills).  Cases like that could add to the drama, and make brain damaged colonists less monotonous(I might not have to starve them any more).

-Argon

[Mathenaut]

"Countering everything somehow" isn't even the attitude of traditional RTS. Good strategy games reward being innovative and prepared, and moreso they apply consequence to mistakes made.

That's the key issue. It's one thing to suffer consequence because you made a mistake. It's another to be permanently crippled because dice. The major complaints aren't just about bad things happening, it's about removing player agency with regard to things happening.

Ultimately, it goes full circle and back to what I first said: The only purpose it serves is to provoke a dramatic moment in the player. Though, given the lack of agency involved, it will be short-lived and they'll come to the conclusion that many do: The colonist may as well have just died, because they aren't being kept around anyways.

[Vexare]

... they'll come to the conclusion that many do: The colonist may as well have just died, because they aren't being kept around anyways.

Pretty sure this is the sentiment some have when tragic things happen to people in the real world and they're left in a state which lessens their quality of life such as a devastating brain injury. People who have lost limbs or been paralyzed in accidents sometimes wish they'd died instead - but the resilience of human nature pushes us to overcome and adapt and find meaning and enjoyment even beyond limitations. That's why our species is successful in evolving to highly sophisticated functions such as designing virtual realities where tiny arm-less and leg-less people can find meaning in their lives, stranded on a hostile planet! Things just went full circle and got really deep right there my friend. I wish I lived in Colorado, we could discuss the meaning of life over some nice home-grown xerigium.

All jokes aside though - this isn't a traditional RTS. It's a storyteller game, an RPG more than a strategy game with survival and city building thrown in for good mix. It's a hybrid I think and again, read the post I wrote asking if a player had played any tabletop or traditional RPG style games. Games like that have consequences which are sometimes irreversible and at the whim of the roll of the dice. Why does irreversible brain damage bother you so much? Death is permanent and final and ...boring. If all we ever had to worry about was units/pawns being destroyed in battle and countering with constant new "squad tactics" we'd be playing an entirely different game. I like RTS games, don't get me wrong, but it's a different mindset entirely. You're not supposed to be attached to your "units" (in an RTS) - they are disposable "pawns" ...both are terms I see used in this forum but are somewhat unflattering for the intended gameplay of RimWorld.

Yes, there's strategy involved with defending your base and knowing how to fight well with your colonists - I get it. But at the same time, you're supposed to feel something and be attached to your characters. I think that's honestly why it bugs people more when bad things happen to them. I was devastated when my favorite colonist (and the best medic to boot) got a brain injury. But it made for a very memorable experience in that game. I did finally euthanize her after she got sick from plague and never seemed able to get out of bed anymore. Poor thing.

[tommytom]

Maybe brain damaged people could receive treatments of "physical therapy" from doctors. They have to basically stay bed-ridden (to get it done as soon as possible). Maybe make it so they recover 90% with a lot of time.

It's realistic as a stroke victim can get better, but it takes a lot of work, effort, and patience.

Then, at least, you have a choice to sell/harvest a brain damaged person, or put the time/effort into getting back the colonist you care about. Still causes drama, still balanced, gives a choice.

Edit:
I can imagine my favorite colonist as a brain dead vegetable with me and all the colonist hoping he will pull through and upgrade one stage or more (random) in his mental ability. If it fails, I wasted a lot of time just trying to get him awake and moving.

[Vexare]

Maybe brain damaged people could receive treatments of "physical therapy" from doctors. They have to basically stay bed-ridden (to get it done as soon as possible). Maybe make it so they recover 90% with a lot of time.

It's realistic as a stroke victim can get better, but it takes a lot of work, effort, and patience.

Then, at least, you have a choice to sell/harvest a brain damaged person, or put the time/effort into getting back the colonist you care about. Still causes drama, still balanced, gives a choice.

Edit:
I can imagine my favorite colonist as a brain dead vegetable with me and all the colonist hoping he will pull through and upgrade one stage or more (random) in his mental ability. If it fails, I wasted a lot of time just trying to get him awake and moving.

Yeah I like the idea of some sort of extended medical treatment / therapy that might help improve your chances of lessening the permanent damage - gives you a wildcard roll and another chance.

Oddly enough, in looking back on my brain-damage situation, I remember the colonist could barely move, almost to the point of starvation. Suffered a mental break, and then mysteriously 'snapped out of it' and was faster but still impaired after that if that makes any sense. I don't know if that was intended by the AI or not. It did leave an impression on me and after quite a few restarts I still found that story the most tragic of all my characters so far. She was one of the three founders and they had almost gotten the ship completed too. They had to euthanize her and leave without her. Sad!

[Bob_Namg]

I think it should be left to mods to make it possible.
But if Tynan decided to put it in I would assume the 'cure' would be using some kind of rare ECT device or something to try to make that person a fruit rather than vegetable. Even then the odds of it working would have to be low, and the functioning of a successfully cured patient would have to be hindered remarkably.
So even if you revive that doctor's brain, he would still be a slow moving, near-braindead (though he could still do stuff like art/farming I guess, which can be useful).
Oh and if ECT fails you might as well prepare the grave as soon as the results come in.
There, trauma, drama, and fairness.

[tommytom]

I think it should be left to mods to make it possible.
But if Tynan decided to put it in I would assume the 'cure' would be using some kind of rare ECT device or something to try to make that person a fruit rather than vegetable. Even then the odds of it working would have to be low, and the functioning of a successfully cured patient would have to be hindered remarkably.
So even if you revive that doctor's brain, he would still be a slow moving, near-braindead (though he could still do stuff like art/farming I guess, which can be useful).
Oh and if ECT fails you might as well prepare the grave as soon as the results come in.
There, trauma, drama, and fairness.

Yes, but, you pretty much already have that with mods. You can use an AI core to replace a brain. Sounds like the same thing just with a degree of success or failure.

[SSS]

Mathenaut gets where I'm coming from; his summation of my point was excellent. Thanks! 

Even though it's necessary to some extent, I wouldn't want the game to become overly dependent on RNG, so I agree with Mathenaut there as well. As for Rimworld, it's neither an RPG nor a RTS, so arguments regarding the commonness of certain elements in other genres doesn't work as justification. There needs to be proper reasoning behind it. Tynan is basically pioneering (or at least codifying) a completely new genre of gaming here, so decisions made could have a big impact further down the line.

That being said, I'm eager to see what road Rimworld ends up taking.

[PKGameOnly]

I dont mind the brain damage aspect of the game.  And if it is your best doctor, well as someone said earlier, dont put him in the line of fire.  I for one do not arm my doctor (he has a melee weapon for those rare/freq animal attacks), and I always leave him behind in the med bay behind locked doors so that he cannot escape/time out and try to do stupid stuff and get shot.  Since bad surgery is in the game now, I dont want my wounded guys with a foot missing to also, thru bad doctoring, get his arm removed because the clumsy doc dont know an arm from a leg.

[Bob_Namg]

I think it should be left to mods to make it possible.
But if Tynan decided to put it in I would assume the 'cure' would be using some kind of rare ECT device or something to try to make that person a fruit rather than vegetable. Even then the odds of it working would have to be low, and the functioning of a successfully cured patient would have to be hindered remarkably.
So even if you revive that doctor's brain, he would still be a slow moving, near-braindead (though he could still do stuff like art/farming I guess, which can be useful).
Oh and if ECT fails you might as well prepare the grave as soon as the results come in.
There, trauma, drama, and fairness.

Yes, but, you pretty much already have that with mods. You can use an AI core to replace a brain. Sounds like the same thing just with a degree of success or failure.

The difference is in my proposal, the cured person is barely alive.
It's almost not worth it to keep them alive, especially not in a colony that doesn't have a stable income of food.

[Mathenaut]

Games like that have consequences which are sometimes irreversible and at the whim of the roll of the dice. Why does irreversible brain damage bother you so much? Death is permanent and final and ...boring.

This just underscores the point being made. Death is boring to you, so be it. I give special grave plots and memorials to colonists that don't survive the escape. In contrast to dying to sacrifice to save the colony, losing colonists due to 'brain damage' is bland and boring and.. so mundane. Nowhere near as dramatic and, if anything, ruining the moment.

Your example still doesn't hold in contrast to tabletop games. Even those RNG elements are consequences of risks and decisions made by a player. The DM doesn't just randomly roll the dice and say 'you're brindead, have fun with the rest of the party'. There's no adventure in that, no dignity in that. You may think there's some deeper meaning to be contrived from it, and that's cool I guess, but I'll just roll another character and jump back in where the fun is.

I'm not the type of person that builds 3-year long colonies with 20 colonists on low difficulty playing 'little house on the rimworld'. I play in harsh environments, often with Randy, where every episode is a dramatic and desperate tale of survivors trying to get off the rock they're stranded on.

I don't have a ton of colonists because ships that big take an excess of time and metal that isn't worth another month of pirate raids and mechanoid assaults, or god forbid another AI drop. It also means that losing colonists hurts, because each of them are important, they're not just.. accessories.

So sure, random braindead nursery may be great for you, but it's something that's really out of place for me. Long term expensive sinks and years-long solutions may be great for you, but they functionally don't exist for me.

This isn't to say that you can't have those things, by all means. Just don't sell it off as something it isn't. As someone straying far from the point of trying to leave the planet, I'm not the one deviating from the goal, you are.

[Vexare]

Your example still doesn't hold in contrast to tabletop games. Even those RNG elements are consequences of risks and decisions made by a player. The DM doesn't just randomly roll the dice and say 'you're brindead, have fun with the rest of the party'. There's no adventure in that, no dignity in that. You may think there's some deeper meaning to be contrived from it, and that's cool I guess, but I'll just roll another character and jump back in where the fun is.

Ok. First off, I'm trying hard to ignore your somewhat insulting bits and the end there (and edited out those parts) and keep this on topic because it's obvious you have disdain for the "endless play" style some prefer in a storyteller a' la Dwarf Fortress style game. And I hate to break it to you but Tynan has been quoted many times including this thread stating this *is* in fact a storyteller game more than it's a straight RTS. Strategy and the current (limited) ending are only part of the overall vision for the game so using that as your entire platform is not only short-sighted it's somewhat antagonistic. You act as if my way (which isn't eccentric and is preferred by many players) of playing the game is wrong, and that's a terrible way to respond to someone rather than just leaving it at "ok so maybe you like that kind of play but it's not my cup of tea and brain damage bugs me..." yeah I respect that. I don't respect being attacked for my playstyle preference that doesn't really have a lot to do with the topic at hand anyways as whether you play a game in a few hours flat and blast off, leave, game over, or prefer to stretch it out over years of a colony's existence makes no difference to the base issue of whether or not irreversible things such as brain damage are "fair" play or not.

I gave you a tabletop / DM scenario game as an example to hopefully point out to you that yes in fact things do happen out of your control and at the whim of the storyteller / roll of the dice. You said "Even those RNG elements are consequences of risks and decisions made by a player." and my immediate response to that, as others have already pointed out in responses on this thread, is: "But you did in fact take a risk, and make a decision... you put that character in harm's way somehow and it got shot and took a bullet to the brain and is now brain-dead or semi-coherent veggie state..."

There really isn't much more I can say to this and I do not want it to turn into a flame-fest so I'm going to end at least my part in the debate before it gets really heated. I didn't like your pointed accusations about my playstyle and while I can respect your position of disliking the brain-dead thing, it's not my game that's telling the story and the guy who wrote it has already spoken about it and put it a lot more simply and clearly than I ever could. Good luck with your veggie colonists. I finally euthanized mine.

PS: This is what Tynan said on page 2:

I've actually quite deliberately never thought of it as a strategy game. The entire design process has very explicitly been guided by the notion of RimWorld as a 'story generator' above all.

Mainly this is because there are tons of great strategy games on the market that I can't beat. But there are very few decent story generators.

Obviously it's good to create meaningful multivariate decisions for players (tundra/non-tundra is a good example). But this takes a backseat to narrative drama where necessary.

[RemingtonRyder]

I tend to agree that brain damage is simplified in the game. There's the potential there to broaden things considerably. For example, it need not merely be a bullet in brain scenario - perhaps blunt force trauma can induce swelling, or something else which is more nuanced.

There's also the possibility for a colonist's base Doctoring skill to be modified for particular operations, in which case a doc with the neurosurgeon trait is going to have more luck with Spock's brain than one without.

At any rate, I think the thing to do here is agree to disagree until Tynan has a chance to update the health system further.

[Mathenaut]

Ok. First off, I'm trying hard to ignore your somewhat insulting bits and the end there (and edited out those parts) and keep this on topic because it's obvious you have disdain for the "endless play" style some prefer in a storyteller a' la Dwarf Fortress style game.

I don't have a particular disdain for it. It's as I said at the end of my last post: Don't sell it as something it's not.

I'm not sure why you're insulted. You're the one insisting that anyone not buying into your specific brand of the dramatic is an RTS addict that doesn't appreciate depth or nuance. I'm just letting you know that it's just one perspective of many.

Your drama is boring to me. You see it as 'playing like an rts', I see it as 'not playing it like the Sims'. Let's be ever-mindful that you're the one who opened this tangent can of worms to begin with.

You may find random RNG punishment to be exciting and fresh or whatever. Sure. I find it pointless and don't see value in having agency removed. You need to divorce yourself of this odd idea that 'rts playstyle' is behind everything you don't enjoy or that playstyles unlike your own have no depth.

This is what raises the question before this of the limits on what kinds of stories can be told.

That aside, I don't need luck with my brain-deads. I just kill them off and pretend they went out better than that.