Brain Damage

[Tynan]

SSS I'm having trouble summarizing your post into a conclusion. You seem to be critical of my decision/statement that brain damage creates interesting tragic stories. But ultimately, your criticism seems to come down to "the game should be able to do much more than just this". Or, more succinctly, "needs moar content".

In which case, I agree. I'd also prefer a version of RimWorld that could tell a wider variety of stories. It's just a matter of doing the development work to support that. You're criticizing an openly unfinished game for being unfinished.

"Why is "drama", particularly "tragedy", king?" Nobody ever says it was king - only that it's valuable, and there was an easy opportunity to add some to the game using existing game systems, so I did. When there are opportunities to add comedy or mystery, I'll do those too.

As for players tuning the game to generate different kinds of stories - that's an interesting idea, and it's one that's been core to the storyteller choice concept for a long time. But there simply isn't enough content to play that out yet. Let's finish making a story generator that does a great job on one kind of story before we try to make it do everything.

[SSS]

Earlier in the thread (page 1) you said it was unlikely that brain damage would ever become fixable because it would be less tragic, and you questioned why someone would want "less drama" in their game. I don't think it's hard to see how I concluded that this possibility indeed wouldn't come about in the future, even with further additions to the storytelling engine- which is why I made my post. It sounded like you only had one type of story you wanted to be told with Rimworld, even in the long term.

The addendum's were added to make my criticism more constructive and less vapid complaining. I think acknowledging that there isn't a good alternative at the moment is fair. I'm not banging down your door demanding this, but I would like it very much if you would be open to this sort of thing in the future, when there are enough potential differences (like the permanence of brain damage) to give different modes/storytellers a specific mood.

[Tynan]

Well I'm totally with you. It's just a matter of doing it. Making a game tell one style of story is really bloody hard.

That said, I think it's possible. The game has been all about combat and survival just because those are the first things I approached and the ones that are most "obvious" in the setting. But I have some ideas for future systems which could emphasize other emotional charges. I think you'll be pleased with them if/when they're actually released.

[SSS]

I do think you're doing a great job with the current direction; Rimworld just seems like the sort of project with nearly endless possibilities.

I'll look forward to those potential systems. They sound cool.

[tommytom]

Here are some interesting things that could be added:

Cremation into an ern. Has words about their life/death and maybe some beauty or custom moodlet (psychopaths get no buff).
Similarly, gravestones that have the same info/traits.
Holding funerals to turn lost colonists bad moodlets into good ones at the cost of production/defense.

[Darkhymn]

Here are some interesting things that could be added:

Cremation into an ern. Has words about their life/death and maybe some beauty or custom moodlet (psychopaths get no buff).
Similarly, gravestones that have the same info/traits.
Holding funerals to turn lost colonists bad moodlets into good ones at the cost of production/defense.

I like all of these ideas, perhaps the urns could be based on crafting and have some words about the occupant' life? Same with custom gravestones for the graveyard? I also think that the option for a proper funeral would make deaths a bit more poignant, if only because "haul his/her body to an unmarked grave next to three faceless enemies and a rotted boomrat" just seems a bit callous!

[lusername]

I don't see why brain damage SHOULD be fixable, really. That's sort of the entire point of shooting people in the head, even in more advanced sci-fi, where you can regrow someone's entire body, but having your brain shot out is definitely dead.

[Vexare]

I'd also prefer a version of RimWorld that could tell a wider variety of stories. It's just a matter of doing the development work to support that. You're criticizing an openly unfinished game for being unfinished.

Thank You for the reminder Tynan! It warms my tiny e-heart to know you are a storyteller wizard more than a strategy builder engineer for RimWorld. There are tons of great city-builders and RTS games in development or released in the past few years that satisfy the min/max player's needs to micromanage and control a population of mindless (ha ha see what I did there) minions.

The quandry with RimWorld is it seems to straddle genres and thus is attracting vastly different types of gamers who prefer different styles of gameplay. You have your hands full here sir - my hair hats off to you on that challenge. Trying to satisfy all types of players is of course impossible. Decide the direction you want it to go for it's long-term goal and plow in that direction steadily. It's easy to forget how early-on RimWorld really is in development. One has only to explore other games in similar dev phases of the same genre to realize that. I just took a jaunt down "lets explore some other sim/colony builders" this past week or two and was sorely disappointed but that only helped reinforce my opinion that RimWorld is the Neo I've been hoping for.

[Daedalus2051]

Personally I think that brain damage as a crippling health effect is good. I also agree with the idea of being able to replace with a brain implant or something similar; with of course a "penalty". If we were able to replace the brain then we have to consider that this would completely change that person, and as such he would have to re-roll all of the skills and traits that s/he has. I mean how different would this be from replacing any other body part? When one of my colonists lost a leg from a firefight I waited and saved as much money as I could to find him a better replacement than a peg leg; and when an exotic goods trader came around I felt that (from a storytelling aspect) the entire colony was happy to see that their brethren was no longer set back by the loss of his leg.

Would it not be the same from a drama/story aspect to wait and save until someone with a brain implant or AI core comes around in the same manner? Or what if there is the negative effect of "rejecting the implant"? For example, the colonist realizes that they had a brain implant done and they don't like who they've become, so then they have a mental breakdown and/or leave the colony because of it?

I think there is some merit to the idea of having a "fix" for everything, but it must also come with consequences that are equal to the severity of the situation... well that's my 2 cents anyway.

[cultist]

Maybe brain damage could be made a little more complex than it currently is - damage to the brain does not necessarily mean that a person is unable to walk, talk, eat and use their hands properly. You could get only one of those effects, or all of them, but brain damage does not necessarily turn a person into a vegetable. It seems reasonable to me that a person with minor brain damage could lose the use of their legs (or entire body), but remain relatively coherent, mentally. Or the other way around.

A bit of randomization could make it more interesting I think.

[DNK]

Brain damage is good. It's meant to be a somewhat brutally realistic game (in some ways), as it's in the survival genre.

If you don't want brain damage for someone, don't put them in the line of fire. I've yet to see brain damage occur to someone who was just tilling the fields. People who put their prime doctors in their military unit really shouldn't complain when said doctors become useless. That's not thinking things through strategically. The game requires you to use a certain level of common sense ultimately, and it shouldn't provide easy solutions to the problems that inevitable arise when you fail to do that. That said, it IS somewhat forgiving what with organ and limb transplants, so this is hardly DF-level difficulty. I really like the current balance.

[UrbanBourbon]

Personally I think that brain damage as a crippling health effect is good. I also agree with the idea of being able to replace with a brain implant or something similar; with of course a "penalty". If we were allow to replace the brain then we have to consider that this would completely change that person, and as such he would have to re-roll all of the skills and traits that s/he has.

I was thinking something like this as well. I wouldn't re-roll everything, though. Something like:
Force re-roll of one trait.
If any of the other traits have a spectrum, then 50% chance of a shift (for better or for worse).
Then shuffle the skill levels: Cut all skills by half. Add 1-8 whole skill levels to a random skill. Switch the levels of two randomly chosen skills. Mwahaha!

[Mathenaut]

Basically, Tynan is saying that the current implementation of brain trauma is meant to add an element of drama.

SSS is pointing out that people with different perspectives on the dramatic will not necessarily see it that way.

So the question becomes: Is Rimworld telling Tynan's story, or a story that the player should be building? There isn't a wrong answer to this, mind you, but it does make a difference in the approach and expectations of the game.

[Vexare]

So the question becomes: Is Rimworld telling Tynan's story, or a story that the player should be building? There isn't a wrong answer to this, mind you, but it does make a difference in the approach and expectations of the game.

Have you ever played a traditional RPG or tabletop RP? There's always a Dungeon Master and their job is to decide the story's path though they aren't "gods" by any means - the outcome of your character's actions are decided by the roll of a dice or random AI in the case of computer games. Tynan is just the wizard who created the AI. The AI storytellers are the DMs in this game and it's their randomness (or predictableness) that decides. If you're a gamer who wants complete control of everything, then a storyteller game might not be your thing. *Edit: I was not directing 'you' in this response at "you" the person I replied/quoted to btw, sorry if that came across as any sort of criticism or pointed. I was referring in general to all the 'you's' reading who might disagree with unfixable outcomes to their game's characters.

The fact that there is no right answer to the question is why the game will appeal to some and not to other types of gamers with differing playstyles. A full blown RTS or turn-based strategy game gives you a way to counter every situation that is thrown your way with the roll or turn, but only if you know the right thing to counter it. In an RPG, you may not be able to counter everything and in fact it may be impossible to counter some static story driven elements. Brain damage for one of your colonists is an unfortunate side effect of a battle injury that may or may not leave your colonist dead, permanently impaired or simply a little slower. I'd like to see the options expanded a bit to have maybe 4-6 possible outcomes so that it's not always fatal but not always Hodor guy left for you to direct around mindlessly too. I love the foundation of this game's unpredictableness and storytelling, but I despise the ending!

[Mathenaut]

Maybe overshooting it a bit.

The question of whether RNG-induced incurable brain trauma is 'dramatic' or 'pointlessly cynical' is not a matter of how Rimworld compares to completely different genres of gaming.

It's a question of what constraints Tynan wants to place on the kinds of stories Rimworld can tell.