Why does my colony suck at combat? pls help...

[REMworlder]

Is this intended or just a balancing issue that hasn't been gotten to yet?
(Halinder had a nice bit of info, but he isn't the dev... )

You can always check out the game info yourself if you're not sure! Just open up the files and check it all out. For example you can see in ThingDefs\Weapons_Melee.xml that maces and clubs do blunt damage: <meleeDamageDef>Blunt</meleeDamageDef>

Then in TypeDefs\BaseDamageTypes.xml to see that blunt damage is the only damage type that can mess up stuff inside the target even if it doesn't actually penetrate to where the organ/thing being damaged is: <hasChanceToAdditionallyDamageInnerSolidParts>true</hasChanceToAdditionallyDamageInnerSolidParts>

And melee will probably be changed next patch as well. There's definitely an emphasis being put on melee because of incoming changes like personal shields and armor damage.

[erdrik]

That doesn't speak to what is intended, only to what is currently implemented.
Ive been lurking and interacting here enough to know development changes happen frequently and sweepingly enough that implemented can = temporary..

@christhekiller it doesn't have to be Halo or Warhammer armor, but it does have to be better than caveman weapons.
At the very least it needs to be useful. Currently power armor is worthless against neolithic raids.
Because of the neolithic numbers per raid and health bonus you are guaranteed to be embroiled in melee, and apparently there is no defense capable of defeating the all powerful stone club.

[tuver]

Remember there are many factors in hitting a target with range. Select your shooter and put your cursor over the target. it should pop up the stats. Darkness and weather are my biggest bane.

Remember not to let melee get too close, most range take too long to shoot and the melee will hit you and reset your cooldown. If you can't get away, melee them over shooting them.

[erdrik]

The issue with accuracy was resolved.

You statements on melee does not change my stance on 'stone club vs. power armor'.
Namely: Stone club should lose.

[christhekiller]

That doesn't speak to what is intended, only to what is currently implemented.
Ive been lurking and interacting here enough to know development changes happen frequently and sweepingly enough that implemented can = temporary..

@christhekiller it doesn't have to be Halo or Warhammer armor, but it does have to be better than caveman weapons.
At the very least it needs to be useful. Currently power armor is worthless against neolithic raids.
Because of the neolithic numbers per raid and health bonus you are guaranteed to be embroiled in melee, and apparently there is no defense capable of defeating the all powerful stone club.

My general defense against melee attackers is melee defenders. Get a brawler or some people specialized in melee, give them a longsword and some power armor and there will be few tribals who could stand against them.

[MikhailBoho]

The trick is knowing when to withdraw a ranged fighter. If you see two or three melee fighters barreling towards them, pull them back to a safer place. The AI will take time to recalculate at which point, you can get a few shots/swings in from other fighters. Never let 2 or more fighters get the drop on you!

[erdrik]

Neither of those are the point.
I know how to kite. I know how to tank.
Im saying a power armor equip colonist shouldn't have to worry about stone clubs.
The reason I didn't kite, is because I correctly assumed a stone club would not be a threat.

Steel clubs? yes. Kite for days.
Plasteel anything? yes. Kite for days.

But a fracking rock on a stick?! Hell no. I should be able to take that hit and laugh at the chump afterwards.
Or at the very least take several hits before even being effected, not 'knocked the frack out in one hit'.

[immoral_]

The thing with armor is that it is designed more to deflect, or spread the impact over a larger area.

With some form of ammunition, that deflection or spreading of impact is minimal. With a club of whatever material, the initial impact area is vastly larger than the impact of a shell.

[erdrik]

So? Bullets are made of refined metal, and travel at high velocity.
Stone way more brittle and travels much slower. The club would break itself before it broke the power armor.

(I see you said "a club of whatever material". The topic of conversation is Stone Club vs Power Armor. Try not to deflect next time.( lol See what I did there. ) )

[Zerkuran]

So? Bullets are made of refined metal, and travel at high velocity.
Stone way more brittle and travels much slower. The club would break itself before it broke the power armor.

(I see you said "a club of whatever material". The topic of conversation is Stone Club vs Power Armor. Try not to deflect next time.( lol See what I did there. ) )

Velocity is not the factor which determines damage. It is applied force. And force is the multiplikation of mass and acceleration. While a bullet has little mass but massive acceleration (or better decelleration on impact) it can apply and buttload of force. Let us assume a stoneclub with relativ high mass swung skillfully to the fullest could do apply the same force. In such scenario the bullet "wins" beause the force is applied on a much smaller area and therefore more concentrated.

now comes the armor. Armor intends to spread out the applied force so that small or sharp weapons lose their effectiveness. (As stated by immoral_ and other posts.) But it will not help you against clubs cause of the high mass it wont lose its effectiveness.

There are many examples of this blunt damage piercing through armor. I want to state 2 here. First bullet vs. bulletproof vest. The vest stops the bullet from infiltrating the body. But you will of cause get bruises at the impact area and you are most likely to fall of your feet. So blunt damage still hits your boddy (and damages it despite being small and area spread due to vest)

The second Example is a soldier in steel armor vs. mace and sword. A sword has very hard times when it needs to penetrate massive steel armor. The mace on the other hand simply ignores the armor and apply its blunt force th the armor and the armor pass on the force to the body.

So as long the power armor does not have any kind of force field its effectiveness against a skillfully swung stoneclub remains decreased.

[erdrik]

Velocity is not the factor which determines damage. It is applied force. And force is the multiplikation of mass and acceleration.

And what is acceleration?
oh right, velocity / time.
Velocity is a part of the equation.
If it wasn't the concept of a weaponized particle accelerator would not exist.
If it wasn't micro meteoroids, and other small space debris would not be a threat to our spacecraft.

The old adage remains true: speed kills.

While a bullet has little mass but massive acceleration (or better decelleration on impact) it can apply and buttload of force. Let us assume a stoneclub with relativ high mass swung skillfully to the fullest could do apply the same force. In such scenario the bullet "wins" beause the force is applied on a much smaller area and therefore more concentrated.

The bullet also wins against the armor.
When pitted against armor, bullets generally only fail against superior thickness or special layering/properties.
Kevlar is actually a synthetic cloth weave. It protect through tension strength.
When struck the bullet gets tangled and tries to pull and tear its way through, but can't because of the tensile strength.

5.56 non-AP can penetrate 1/2 in. thick steel. The M-24 is 7.62.
In this context, if power armor can stop a M-24 sniper round(which it can from what Ive seen) then it probably has better protection than at least 1/2 thick steel.
Probably more, especially if power armor is made of plasteel.
(2.8x durability, 35% added agility stat probably can count as less weight(allows for thicker armor in areas) )

now comes the armor. Armor intends to spread out the applied force so that small or sharp weapons lose their effectiveness. (As stated by immoral_ and other posts.) But it will not help you against clubs cause of the high mass it wont lose its effectiveness.

Again, that depends on the thickness, durability, and strength of the armor.

So as long the power armor does not have any kind of force field its effectiveness against a skillfully swung stoneclub remains decreased.

Decreased effectiveness does not equal one hit knock out.
Decreased effectiveness does not prevent the stone club from breaking itself apart against a material of superior strength and durability.

Im sorry but it seems to me the amount of mass required to turn a stone club into the one hit wonder I experienced, would also make it too heavy to be used reliably in combat.

EDIT:
And that doesn't get into the obvious gameplay reasons that this should not be.

[Kinakin]

Tried finding a earlier post about how the game treats armor, but alass i failed.

But from memory (and mines not so good) rimworld armor reduces dmg more so then avoid it. And iirc defence values  over 50% add the above value as avoidance.

As such with current formula even a wooden spoon  can dmg ppl using power armor.

My personal opinion is that in order for colonist soldiers to be used above turrets and kill zones the survivability of combat has to be increased. As of now vanilla combat results to often in maiming or death.

Now that beeing said I belive we should be carefull when asuming power armor is a 100% body covering armor wh 40k style. Yes it covers arms and legs but where does it says it covers all of it?

[Goo Poni]

You seem to have fallen into that classic trap of trying to apply real world logic and physics to game logic and physics, OP. Zerkuran is not helping this.

Real world science is irrelevant. Power armour (and any other form of armour or clothing) will reduce damage to a minimum and then lessen the chance to even take damage at all.
Ranged weapons of all kinds, from bows to sniper rifles, have a certain base accuracy at particular ranges. This is usually decaying though there is at least one weapon, the Charge Lance, which actually sees it's base accuracy increase over range. On top of this, a pawn's shooting skill also causes a weapon's accuracy to degrade further. The result is that weapon accuracy at anything more than 10 paces is absolutely piss poor according to the math, with hit chances perpetually below 20%.
And to spice things up, there are different types of damage and armours do not resist all damage equally. Off the top of my head, there is cutting, stabbing, blunt, explosive, electrical, gunshots and generic. I've probably missed a few. Most armours defend against a few of these damage types but not all. If armour does not have resistance to a particular damage, the game acts as if you just don't have that armour equipped for the purposes of calculating damage.
Unfortunately, the lines are blurred as resistance is used as a catchall term and I hope it's clarified down the line.

All in all, this means that the chances of your colonists taking damage are largely to the whims of RNGesus and the best thing you can do is actively (through positioning of colonists in combat) and passively (through armour) reduce the chance of taking damage while maximizing the chance of the enemy taking damage. Volume of fire works well as Centipedes constantly demonstrate with their miniguns and charge blasters. Putting your colonists in darkness while ensuring that anywhere an enemy must trudge is lit up, using walls for full cover bonuses and using chokepoints to ensure your colonists shoot more than the enemy does are ways of lessening the crap that goes on during a raid. This also means melee is an exceptionally sketchy prospect so the counterbalance is that pretty much any melee implement barring fists also does extreme damage. Colonists can die to an enraged tortoise while having eyes bitten out and arms broken and it just serves as a reminder that this is a game. IRL, I can't see why you wouldn't just go around the tortoise and flip it over. It's not like it'll react with any degree of speed. But such wounds sustained by colonists seem to imply they just lay down with the tortoise and try to punch it's shell fruitlessly.

[Kinakin]

Hehe that image in my head of colonist vs turtle fist fight cracks me up.

But aye combat is very RNG atm. But at the same time so is RL combat. There is this quote that says that roughly says a bullet fired by 12 year old is as deadly as one fiered by a soldier.

The difference is how often they hit.

But while current mechanics can be argued one way or the other I still feel that using colonists in combat is not encuraged atm. While the risk should be there I feel that atm it is so large there doesnt seem to be any benefit.

Armor, weapon and skill have so little impact that tactical base design out perform them all.
some form of tweak is needed in order to make it valid beyond the first 10-20 min of gameplay.

[Darth Fool]

In real life, kevlar will stop some bullets, but it will not stop a club. Heck, Kevlar will not stop knives.  It should be no surprise that different armor types will effect attacks from different weapons differently.