Give people a Melee AND Ranged slot

[SuperCaffeineDude]

Not sure I like the idea of lefthand+righthand+backpack equips, it just feels a tad too excessive for it to be useful and hard to picture, duel wielding would be cool though. I'm more for having 2 slots: slung/holstered and equipped.

Reloading ammo could be as simple as the hunger system, when you are low they'd go to the nearest weapon cache/stockpiled ammo and restock.

That's a really good way of looking at it, maybe have quivers, ammo boxes, energy cells and shells. It'd add a whole new industry, and render turret killboxes much harder to maintain (bring in the neo-powder-monkeys (once children/apes are added)). That sort of dynamic would be great at blurring the lines between the good and the bad weapon choices.

[Johnny Masters]

Yeah pretty much. I like new chains and tactical challenges. Specialized weapons instead of black and white good and bads is also a plus.

I kinda agree on the slots, an equipped/hung sounds good, sorta like fallout1&2. But i'd still want to keep a backpack slot for random stuff like medkits, food, ammo or whatever else you might need. Dual wield could just be two pistols as one, taking one slot. This could open to stuff like certain weapons require certain amount of skill, like certain jobs do for other skills. I like specialization.

[Coenmcj]

A second slot for whatever would help broaden the tactical aspect of rimworld, with pros and cons to doing so, do you weigh down your sniper with a second gun just incase he runs out of ammo for the first or the enemy closes distance too quickly?

Being able to equip multiple weapons on the same pawn would lead to some fights being too easy, specialization or pro's for carrying less (No weapons = movement buff?), con's to carrying more (Eg. pawns get a movement debuff for carrying 2 rifles) could lead to some interesting tactical implications.

[Johnny Masters]

A battle becoming easy is relative to your overall strategy, tactics and AI director+ difficulty. But yeah, there should be some cons to carrying lots of weapons and i usually preach that in the form of work and/or speed penalties.

It always struck me silly a colony full with power armored people carrying mini guns going about. Usually i follow such argument with a save and load inventory loadout/template (with an auto-equip such loadout), because it's always a pain to micro all the equipping/unequipping, although i do it for immersion reasons.   

So yeah, you could carry a sniper, a pistol, some extra ammo and wear a power armor, but you better be going for war because you wouldn't be that useful for hauling stuff or cooking. This make mid-tier armor still useful, since kevlar would give enough protection for a few skirmishes, such as sudden orbital strikes, siege-breakers or mad people/animals, and still provides enough mobility.

[Anduin1357]

Yes, carrying ammo should also be possible. Caches would be essential for base defenses where you could lay some around in key points, because since we are outnumbered most of the time, even carrying ammo in inventory would not be enough to keep up with the hundreds of enemies we have to face.

To balance weapon power and simulate magazines, i think you should have ammo be considered exactly the same, except each weapon "drains" or consumes X amount of ammo per shot. So, for example, a high powered weapon like the sniper consumes 10 ammo per shot. A heavy MG might consume only one, but it eats through its ammo pretty fast (fast rate of fire).

It also builds upon post-apoc tropes of rationing ammo. It leaves guns a little further in the tech tree, so you can enjoy a little neolithic era for a while, or give your crafters something to do, unbloating the economy, and ofc, it gives melee its own niche.

p.s.:
yeah, like i said before there could be both kinetic ammo and energy ammo. But no more i think.
not sure what you mean by automatic combat stance (you mean aggressive, cautious, coward, stand ground?
Shooting as moving would be nice.
Draw cut you mean melee weapons like swords giving cut type of wound? Since there's only bash and penetration, i think they should give both types of damage. A sword would be like 4dmg bash and 6pntr. A mace 6 bash 2 penetration. Plus the game could use an armor piercing stat.

Caches would be common lying around if you know where to spot them since enemy pirates usually dump a lot of ammunition all over the place for convenience.
The beauty of it is that raids would be less numbers game and more logistics and skills based, expect smaller raids from AI since ammo expenditure from huge assaults would be lots of ammo.

I would suggest that we have separate ammo for separate calibers for Project Armory since that is more realistic than the "consume x amt of ammo for y gun" unless it is an energy weapon for obvious reasons. It would be more realistic than the 1 ammo, all guns approach. This would force some standardisation for the colony and basically balance the guns out.

Remember, shotguns also have shot ammo and RPGs need shells.
If you need lots of ammo in a defense, put your ammo cache near where you would most expect combat.


Automatic combat stance to make best use of cover ex. crouch behind embrasure, judge situation and decide between cover fire or ADS standing fire.
Quick-prone when under fire in the open.
Running behind cover involves "roadrunning" which is basically crouch and run.


Different melee combat moves like stabbing, draw cutting, quick-strike cut, parrying, dodging, hilt smash, guard smashing etc...
Basically a lot of Historical European Martial Arts etc... Something to give depth to melee combat in general.


Having more weapons on hand would mean that you need to find space to carry the weapon, you need to use up inventory space to store ammunition etc... Keep in mind that when doing jobs, the guy can put down his weapon so there is no penalty to work speed.
A minigun would, ofc, be something you want to mount on a static position than be carried around.


Powered armor would increase the amount of weight you can carry and potentially also increase inventory size. It needs a power source though and I would really love it if it would require some power to function and a bit of battery or a built in RTG which means free power at the cost of some uranium.
It would be able to life support the guy wearing it and generally act like Spartan armor without the AI (unless you install an AI Persona Core) and pretty much RFID.

[Johnny Masters]

Caches would be common lying around if you know where to spot them since enemy pirates usually dump a lot of ammunition all over the place for convenience.
The beauty of it is that raids would be less numbers game and more logistics and skills based, expect smaller raids from AI since ammo expenditure from huge assaults would be lots of ammo.

Agreed, i'm all for smaller, specialized attacks instead of crude waves. With such a system a fog-of-war feature would be even more feasible.

I would suggest that we have separate ammo for separate calibers for Project Armory since that is more realistic than the "consume x amt of ammo for y gun" unless it is an energy weapon for obvious reasons. It would be more realistic than the 1 ammo, all guns approach. This would force some standardisation for the colony and basically balance the guns out.

Remember, shotguns also have shot ammo and RPGs need shells.

Yeah, that depends on the amount of realism you want (and the gameplay you're willing to sacrifice) and how much disbelief you're willing to suspend. I come from a PNP rpg background mostly, so playing these games we learn to abstract a lot of stuff.

Although a sniper consuming 10 shots and a MG 2 is not realistic, in the end it's nearly the same, for gameplay purposes at least. It also facilitates how to deal with restocking and multiple weapons, so you don't need separate ammo slots for every type of ammo you might need.

I guess, for a mod, you could go the complex round for the added tactical choices. But it just strikes me that for vanilla, having ammo at all would already be a stretch, so it would be good enough

Different melee combat moves like stabbing, draw cutting, quick-strike cut, parrying, dodging, hilt smash, guard smashing etc...
Basically a lot of Historical European Martial Arts etc... Something to give depth to melee combat in general.

Although i love complex martial maneuvers, specially from hema or arma, they tend to be better applied into more complex systems (such as pnp riddle of steel) or more complex tactical games. It's like the above with ammo types. It's a game that has some complexities but is very simple in other areas, for example there's not even an animation for moving. So although i think there should be some kind of maneuvers (as discussed in another thread, like charging or disarming), i think some are easily abstracted into simply hitting and damaging.

Having more weapons on hand would mean that you need to find space to carry the weapon, you need to use up inventory space to store ammunition etc... Keep in mind that when doing jobs, the guy can put down his weapon so there is no penalty to work speed.
A minigun would, ofc, be something you want to mount on a static position than be carried around.

Powered armor would increase the amount of weight you can carry and potentially also increase inventory size. It needs a power source though and I would really love it if it would require some power to function and a bit of battery or a built in RTG which means free power at the cost of some uranium.
It would be able to life support the guy wearing it and generally act like Spartan armor without the AI (unless you install an AI Persona Core) and pretty much RFID.

Could agree with putting weapon aside, but the general idea is to also be able to use tools. Could also agree with power armor actually aiding in certain actions, like power lifting. But requiring a fuel source should be a cool balance. Could be a limited thing like fuel cell or uranium or even electricity, which is cheap, but would require a charge every once in a while.

[CB elite]

/Sorry for the random entrance to the conversation.

I just wanted to say that I think a simple primary/secondary system would work perfectly for a lot of reasons:

1. Ranged (snipers) could have melee weapons to defend themselves

2. Grenades (as a secondary) could be one/two use only, with a firearm as a primary and such.

3. Tribals could be a lot more of a challenge if given range and melee options at the same time.

4. Combat would require a lot more strategy, making the game more immersive.

That's just my 2 cents

Anyways, carry on!

[Anduin1357]

/Sorry for the random entrance to the conversation.

I just wanted to say that I think a simple primary/secondary system would work perfectly for a lot of reasons:

1. Ranged (snipers) could have melee weapons to defend themselves

2. Grenades (as a secondary) could be one/two use only, with a firearm as a primary and such.

3. Tribals could be a lot more of a challenge if given range and melee options at the same time.

4. Combat would require a lot more strategy, making the game more immersive.

That's just my 2 cents

Anyways, carry on!

We are looking at the possibility for a much more advanced way of managing thing here like having a supersoldier with a rifle, PDW and a rocket launcher and all the relevant stuff. Snipers might as well have a rifle, a pistol and a knife.
Grenades would be something you can carry around so you can even have a grenadier having 50 grenades in total on hand and in his backpack.
Tribals would need a better way of carrying things around than a sack though...

It's not nearly the same, I would rather be able to stack 10,000 12.7mm rounds in 10 boxes of ammo than have to stack 1,000 shots worth of 12.7mm as 10,000 generic bullets.
The ratio of .22 to generic bullets would be 5:1 in terms of material needed.

And then there's the bit about logistics and standardisation.
Would you rather fill up your armory with guns that all use different ammo and waste storage space than to standardise and make say, 5.56mm NATO and M4A1s being the standard SMG while having the UZI 9mm as the MP sidearm?
Sure, you could say that making all the guns use the same ammunition would be a good abstraction but where is the fun in that?

We dont have to animate the maneuvers themselves, we just have to move the pawns differently to represent different types of maneuvers. That way, we can really make melee skill matter in melee fighting than just chance to hit etc.

Uranium is practically not a limited fuel item since it can be fissioned to annihilate 4.4% of it's relativistic mass to energy before being 'depleted' and that is a large amount of energy even for something like Uranium-233 which has a mass of 15 kg to fission and from there, generates enough power to last the suit (in a 11cm^3 sphere) for who knows how long?

There is no use abstracting most of the melee techniques because those techniques DO matter in all forms of fighting.
+ I must add that all the weapons in the game is unrealistically abstracted to have a range of the adjacent square which should not be the case for long swords etc.

[Johnny Masters]

It's not nearly the same, I would rather be able to stack 10,000 12.7mm rounds in 10 boxes of ammo than have to stack 1,000 shots worth of 12.7mm as 10,000 generic bullets.
The ratio of .22 to generic bullets would be 5:1 in terms of material needed.

And then there's the bit about logistics and standardisation.
Would you rather fill up your armory with guns that all use different ammo and waste storage space than to standardise and make say, 5.56mm NATO and M4A1s being the standard SMG while having the UZI 9mm as the MP sidearm?
Sure, you could say that making all the guns use the same ammunition would be a good abstraction but where is the fun in that?

We dont have to animate the maneuvers themselves, we just have to move the pawns differently to represent different types of maneuvers. That way, we can really make melee skill matter in melee fighting than just chance to hit etc.

Uranium is practically not a limited fuel item since it can be fissioned to annihilate 4.4% of it's relativistic mass to energy before being 'depleted' and that is a large amount of energy even for something like Uranium-233 which has a mass of 15 kg to fission and from there, generates enough power to last the suit (in a 11cm^3 sphere) for who knows how long?

There is no use abstracting most of the melee techniques because those techniques DO matter in all forms of fighting.
+ I must add that all the weapons in the game is unrealistically abstracted to have a range of the adjacent square which should not be the case for long swords etc.

That really falls down again on how complex you want the game and how many compromises you're willing to make on gameplay vs realism.

I just happen to think that 1-2 types of ammo is suffice to grant enough of a tactical depth without over-complex logistics. Realistic ammo types are easy to express in turn-based tactical games, i just question the need and efficiency in an indie-like sim building game. To each his own.

As for maneuvers: a parry is a miss by the enemy, a ripost is a miss by the opponent followed by one of your hits. A stop-hit is a attack that stuns the enemy. Simultaneous block & strike is enemy missing and you attacking, etc. It can all be abstracted % hit mechanics. What we could use tho is maneuvers that grants a manipulation of mechanics. A trip maneuver that brings a pawn down for 1-2 seconds is one. One that disarms is another. So could be a stun. I guess a dodge could mean the pawn moves a block back or sideways...
Again, the question of mattering or not is a question of suspension of disbelief. If you have a finely grained need for realism then yeah, you might need every single maneuver translated in the game. OTOH, you might just roll a d6 and imagine whatever you want.

An overly graphic game has some limitations in such aspect, but a game like rimworld does not.

[Anduin1357]

My thoughts exactly, but rolling a dice for moves is not what I call smart AI.
Maybe if the world hadn't made so many different calibers for so many different guns, we won't be discussing this.
It's something tangible and not something you just simplify and expect it to be the same.
Some of the focus in Rimworld is both in logistics and combat, let there be all the ammo in the world.

[Kinakin]

Id like 2 weapons for the sole reason of stopping my warriors getting chain stunned in melee by a insane squirrel forcing him to drop his lmg and engage in fistacuffs witha literal rodent or die.

[SuperCaffeineDude]

Id like 2 weapons for the sole reason of stopping my warriors getting chain stunned in melee by a insane squirrel forcing him to drop his lmg and engage in fistacuffs witha literal rodent or die.

Yeh i feel your pain, regardless of whether we get extra weapon slots, colonists should automatic engage in melee for stuff like that.

[Mihsan]

Wouldn't it be great if you could give each character a ranged weapon AND a melee weapon to use?  That way when you tell your people to put down their guns and go at it tooth and nail, they're not going in unarmed.

I agree with your observation: one weapon per pawn is bad.

I just do not think, that "melee+ranged" is good enough replacement. How about grenades + assault rifle? How about sword (to kill) + club (to capture)? How about backup pistols? (we will have breakable weapons in next update, right?) How about pistol to carry with that tripple rocket launcher?

IMO we must have more complex system from tactical RPG like Jagged Alliance, X-COM or Project Zomboid. Some main features:
- Inventory for pawns to carry items
- Weight and/or size system to limit ammount of items
- Slots to assign items (both apparel and weapons); possible fast slots to switch between few weapons

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[Coenmcj]

Personally liked how JA2 Handled it, however in Rimworld's case we're going to need alot more equipment to merit the need for an inventory using a similiar method.

[Anduin1357]

I think that the normal GUI inventory would do fine, no need to overcomplicate space use and all that, that can wait.