Mechanoid Balancing

[Agalyon]

Having experienced most of the events Rimworld has to offer, I really feel that mechanoids are out of place, or at least in the early game. Being attacked by multiple centipedes at once (plus scythers) is essentially terminal without a legitimate fortress and people to man it. Even if you do manage to kill them, the wounds sustained in doing so is likely the end of your colony regardless.

I would like to make the distinction that while I do not feel that mechanoids in general fit with Rimworld, (especially early game, why do these incredibly well armed AI creatures feel the need to assault a handful of colonists with nothing to offer them?) scythers bother me much, much less than centipedes. Scythers have a distinct theme: they are accurate, deadly, and noticeably tougher than your average raider, and around on par with an assassin, with a little added durability. Centipedes on the other hand, seem like true machines of war; they are armed to the teeth with heavy weapons, and needlessly durable. Centipedes can soak hundreds of bullets, and even in their most damaged state are capable of combat.

Without the trained manpower and good weapons to fight them, centipedes can take actual days to even incapacitate, assuming RNG doesn't end the fight for you early. I don't understand why something this difficult exists in the early game. Mechanoids seem like a perfect solution to late game difficulty, where scaling would result in being attacked by crazy numbers of bandits. They condense the fighting ability of many units down into one. Perhaps if they were sent after you more sparingly, and in fewer numbers.

Having read many forum threads on the subject, I like the idea of capturing or constructing mechanoids, perhaps even as a solution to dealing with them. Having a centipede or some scythers to fight off other mechanoids seems like a fun idea, as well as manageable. It would also make seeing mechanoids feel like a potential opportunity rather than a death sentence. Another interesting idea that would pair well with having mechanoids be capture-able is to have the more threatening groups of them be neutral, or pass through, and fighting only if provoked. If you felt up to it, you could try and take them for yourself, but doing so would be extremely dangerous.

This has been a rather long post, and I'd like to thank you for reading all of it. I know the first few posts are going to be telling me to play with a different story teller or lower the difficulty, but the point of this post is that dealing with 2 centipedes and a scyther is in no way equivalent to the 5 or so bandits that the game sends you at the same time. Mechanoids seem like an under-implemented concept that could be much more interesting than they are currently. Bandits follow the same rules as your colonists; they bleed, they get hot and cold, and a lucky headshot is most likely fatal. Mechanoids not only outclass colonists in nearly every way in a fight, they are not subject to hardly any of the things humans are, and seem built for another cause than overrunning a tiny colony in the middle of nowhere.

[Johnny Masters]

(sigh i lost my post in a silly refresh)

Nah, i agree with you. Mechanoids fall under the same criticism as raiders in that we wonder who are they, where they come from, why are they attacking us and how the fuck there are so many??

For me, deciding what is the purpose of the mechanoid would begin to solve how they affect the game. Right now it's just a more badass re-skin of a raider with the occasional crawling monster by its side.

Building mechs would fall under the "we want robots and androids" path, which is something we know very little of besides the "who knows what the future holds".

A lot of other sollutions would be based on a lot of other suggestions and variations of the game. Say, stuff like fog-of-war, ammo, z-levels, base relocation and exploration, extra slots, better diplomacy, combat overhaul and a truckton of other stuff that might affect in a tactical rich manner.

If you had ammo for example, a valuable one-shot rocket launcher might do the trick, but acquiring it and ammo for it and having someone to fire properly is the tactical challenge.

With fog-of-war you could hide your base for a long time until they went away. Being able to relocate would mean an indefensible colony could be abandoned.

Perhaps they are attracted by metal (for "procreation" and repairing). Perhaps they are capable of diplomacy and demand that you stop cutting trees because they are the planet's "keepers".

The simplest solution is simply the stuff of tweaking event triggering and enemy numbers, but that's the boring answer right?

[erdrik]

Honestly, Ive never really had a problem with Centipedes.
They are slow as snails, which means you can easily re-position to your advantage.

And Im not sure what you mean taking days to incapacitate, unless all you have is the starting pistols and lee?
That early yea its pretty terminal, but even a shotgun is enough change the tide...

Don't get me wrong, I do think they should be mid game opponents at the earliest.
I just haven't seen the Centipedes be as much of a threat as your describing.


As for what they are...
I like to think that humanity has been in space for much longer than the usable tech would suggest.
That a loooong time ago humanity conquered the stars.
Then started warring with themselves, and built the Mechinoids as tools of war.
Then insert standard "AI goes rogue" scenario and humanity unites in a galactic war against them.
The war leads to humans winning, but both sides are devastated.
Humans lose their unity and some tech, through lost infrastructure and regression over time.
Meanwhile remnants of the Mechinoids roam about trying to continue their 'work'.
By the time the game takes place, humanity is still fractured and Mechinoids are trying to make a comeback.

But that is just my thoughts on it. Maybe it'll be something completely different. 

[Agalyon]

Sorry about your refresh Johnny. I guess tweaking is there for a reason, and Ill definitely look into it. I don't mind encountering them as long as I don't get buried in them. I thought the crashing psychic drone ship parts were neat, but I heard the highest level of those is nearly terminal, and I haven't seen that yet. This game has a ton of depth and whatnot, and I'd like to get to it a little without being steamrolled early game.

Erdrik, It may sound like BS, but the only way I've ever killed one efficiently was with grenades, and it took quite a few. In most cases, it takes at least 50 hits to bring one down (haven't tried a shotgun, I try to keep my guys safe, ill try it if I get the chance), I think the best I've done was 30 to 40 sniper hits. The case I described with the 100+ shots involved 1 machine gun, 2 turrets, and 2 snipers, and it did in fact have at least 100 wounds on it. I should have taken a screenshot, was a little preoccupied at the time, lol. But, I'm sure a lot of that had to do with (at least I have to assume) the machine gun having low damage. I have managed to kite one very well once, but only after it was pretty much crippled anyway. Its easy enough to do, but the ones that don't have chain guns have enough range to hit anything but snipers, and unless the snipers are very well trained, they usually have a terrible hit chance despite the size bonus.

I wonder if the game is balanced around crippling effects and bleeding, which mechanoids don't really suffer? That would make a lot of sense. I'd really like to see some traps too. This is getting a little off topic, but they are so big and slow, you figure they'd be highly susceptible them. Maybe something electricity based that's not too good on people but really good on mechanoids? I don't know.

[Anduin1357]

Well, mechanoids I have no trouble with using mods and the such and killing them does give plaststeel If you have machining table...
I would seriously say that they are OP if you have no killbox to speak of.
Try using emp grenades, they are mechanical so emp might do the trick.

[erdrik]

Erdrik, It may sound like BS, but the only way I've ever killed one efficiently was with grenades, and it took quite a few. In most cases, it takes at least 50 hits to bring one down (haven't tried a shotgun, I try to keep my guys safe, ill try it if I get the chance), I think the best I've done was 30 to 40 sniper hits. The case I described with the 100+ shots involved 1 machine gun, 2 turrets, and 2 snipers, and it did in fact have at least 100 wounds on it. I should have taken a screenshot, was a little preoccupied at the time, lol. But, I'm sure a lot of that had to do with (at least I have to assume) the machine gun having low damage. I have managed to kite one very well once, but only after it was pretty much crippled anyway. Its easy enough to do, but the ones that don't have chain guns have enough range to hit anything but snipers, and unless the snipers are very well trained, they usually have a terrible hit chance despite the size bonus.

Odd. That sounds way off base with my experiences. (not calling BS, could be a lot of factors involved)
Granted the Centipedes with charge lances are indeed scary death machines...

The last Centipede I took down, I did so with 2 shotguns, 2 M24s, and an LMG15.
The Centipede had a charge blaster. IIRC, it took about close to about half the day to kill and I took no losses...
Not sure what your snipers had, but it doesn't sound like that much more fire power than what you had...

What tactics did you use, and did you have enough cover?

(I do agree with Anduin1357, tho. If you get your hands on some EMP grenades I imagine they will help immensely.
I only just recently got my hands on some, so Im looking forward to testing them out.
As an aside, Prioritizing getting trade capability is a great way to get access to some better gear for fighting Mechinoids.)

[Coenmcj]

I've found that a trio or more colonists with atleast a 10 in shooting wielding M16's can take out groups of centipedes easily, just got to micro a tad. Scythers are just like Raider snipers, but move a bit faster and out-range most weapons. Like Anduin said, those EMP grenades are brilliant, and if you've got a horde of mechanoids running your way, the EMP Mortars can disrupt a few long enough to thin down the initial swarm. (the 10 to 20 seconds can help immensely)

Ironically enough, I find that mechanoids are more dangerous when you turtle, opposed to when you don't, microing your colonists around obstacles to stop the critters from getting a good shot seems to do a lot better in my experience.

[Johnny Masters]

Yeah, cents will just steamroll anything you might've set up. When they come in ship's or lay low for a while i've started to build around them, walls and bags and a few escape routes, sometimes a few sentries to keep them off my guys. If everything works alright i take the scythers out and can just bait and switch the fatties.

I guess emp nades could be really good in close "urban" combat while over maneuvering centipedes, but seems risky to use against scythes

[mipen]

I agree that getting mechanoids early game is a very bad thing. I once got two centipedes and a scyther just a couple of days after starting the colony, and it was immediately game over for me.
That being said, you must remember that the game is in alpha, and thus most of what you see if just the bare skeleton as other parts are implemented. Once Tynan has finished all he has planned for the game, he will be able to start fleshing out the features. Mechanoids to me are advanced military units left over from a long forgotten war on the planet (the RimWorld lore is that the galaxy is an old place, with humans everywhere having massively varied levels of technology). If I'm remembering it correctly, in the video where Tynan first introduced mechanoids (you can view his videos on YouTube, just search Tynan Sylvester - he posts a video with every alpha release outlining the new features) he said they were ancient war machines of some sort that roamed the planet (or galaxy). But I like that idea of them, that an ancient civilisation created them and they never really went away. To me, that fits really well with the lore of RimWorld.
To sum up that long, rambling, seemingly pointless paragraph, I have no doubt that later on in the game's development mechanoids will be given purpose and a place in the (rim) world. However, as it is, there should really be a set number of days before mechanoids appear, or maybe your colony has to reach a set wealth level before they come to get you

[Agalyon]

Just had 2 centipedes and 2 scythers on top of a solar flare, that was almost terminal. Having tried a few things, I can say that EMP grenades are definitely cool, I'd like to know if they actually do any damage, but you get about three stuns out of it before they become immune for a while (again, not sure how long the immunity lasts, would also be nice to know.) I'm not ashamed to say it took a fair amount of save scumming to figure out the tactics to kill them without any turrets, but I eventually made it work.
I've come to the decision that the M24 is allllllmost worthless against centipedes. It's a good distraction, but not much else. The shotgun suggestion was very good, and the M16 is also very good. Against the chain gun armed ones, turtling seems to be the answer, but the flame cannon ones are much more difficult. It seems like trying to surround them at close range is the best option, even stepping into near-melee range to force them to either splash themselves or try to back away. In fact, having a dedicated melee'r to lock one in melee as long as they can safely do so seems like a good idea too, as long as you have the firepower to back it up.

[Johnny Masters]

haha tackling down a hunkering metal beast shouldn't be doable (need better armor system for that). Centipedes don't strike back in melee?

[erdrik]

They have a melee attack in their data files(its a headbutt as far as I can tell), but Ive never melee'd one to confirm. 

EDIT:
I like to imagine their entire head shoots out on a piston.

[Johnny Masters]

It should be scary meleeing a cent.

I'd just make them chomp people who got too close. Because every game need a chomper.

Which makes me sad there aren't giant dune worms in rimworld (yet!)

[Coenmcj]

They hit back, and hit back hard... Capable of taking off limbs in single strikes. :|

[Johnny Masters]

Oh, so they do chomp!  ......