Penalty for underground base

[Wopian]

There's a law in game design that states that if there is one solution to a problem that is always available to the player that is clearly superior to the rest (i.e. not limited by rare resources), the player will always choose that solution to solve the problem. If your game falls into this category, chances are it's a bad game, because most games that fall into this category are games in which not much thought was put in. Rimworld is an exception - it is still a good game despite this, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be fixed somehow. I think, rather than making building underground super-dangerous (I'd rather deal with fires than insta-killing cave ins), I suggest we make building above ground a sort of high-risk high-reward scenario. You're more vulnerable to raiders and fire, but you can get great rewards. I'd say that we should make hydroponics more inefficient and above-ground farms more efficient so that you can get more food should you choose an outside life. Likewise, we ought to include happiness boosters. "Nature is beautiful" kind of things that give colonists happiness if they spend enough time outdoors rather than inside a dingy old cavern.

Hmm, I wonder if Tynan covers that topic in his book.

Instead of making hydroponics less effiecient, if oxygen is re-added air cleanliness affects plant growth. above ground will have fresher air and caves will have stale / low oxygen so you would have to invest in air purifyers (or however you spell it)

That would be cool. More atmospheric effects in general would be a good addition, I think.

warmer temperature outside in day (+happiness)
colder temleraturr outside im dark (-happiness)
colder temperature further you go underground (-happiness)


would also be a cool researchable -heaters, which require electricty of course.


And atmospheric modifying weather i'd like to see:


dust cloud (outside plants cant grow / blocks sun)
draught (kills off plants)
flooding (this would be interesting - damaged wires and ruins carpets?)
cold weather (benefits above land colonies)
hot weather (benefits underground colonies)
heatwave

[Ford_Prefect]

Likewise, we ought to include happiness boosters. "Nature is beautiful" kind of things that give colonists happiness if they spend enough time outdoors rather than inside a dingy old cavern.

I like the happiness boost for normal people for being outdoors (unless they prefer indoors :-).  Also, don't forget that there are claustaphobics who should (in a future update) be unhappy going down narrow corridors and tiny rooms.

[mumblemumble]

On the topic of air freshness influencing plant growth...yall realize plants grow because of CO2, and PEOPLE breath the oxygen which is produced by plants, right? And then people exhale CO2 which plants absorb, yada yada yada.

[Wopian]

On the topic of air freshness influencing plant growth...yall realize plants grow because of CO2, and PEOPLE breath the oxygen which is produced by plants, right? And then people exhale CO2 which plants absorb, yada yada yada.

I must have not been thinking when I posted that. :s

[NexusTrimean]

It always amuses me that people are so dead set against cave dwelling, even though our ancestors did it quite successfully for millennia. Caves are naturally better that an above ground dwelling in a number of ways. They offer natural defenses. Generally in the form of a single or a few entrances.
They offer great thermal regulation. Rock is a good insulator, caves tend to stay within a fairly narrow temperature range, in both the summer and the winter. Making them Great for Locations with Large Temperature swings. Rock is for most purposes inflammable. Meaning your cave will not catch on fire. though the things inside it can.

In the ancient past we had, in general to limit our scope to natural caves, or those dug out of soft rock. this limits the scope somewhat. Modern mining Techniques allow for a much wider variety of rock that can be carved out for living space. However you still need a good understanding of geology to do this safely. you have to avoid cracks and fault lines where the rock may fail and ensure that you have enough support to maintain your roof.

Ventilation is another primary problem. Carbon dioxide is poisonous to humans and your cave must be designed to allow the gas to easily escape. In ancient times this was accomplished though ventilation shafts in the rock. In modern times we can use fans and pumps to circulate breathable air.

The Question is how do we turn these drawbacks into fun gameplay mechanics? I think tunneling should be much slower, and earthquakes are not a horrible idea, but we need a way for them to be less lethal than the current cave in mechanic.

Having to tunnel in to save your worker is okay, but having the game decide to randomly kill one or more of them is not a fun mechanic.
You could make it an event like the solar Flare. "The moon is reaching the point between the gas giant and its parent star, siesmic activity is likely to be increase for the next 24 hours"
and make it so that there is a chance that you might have one or more cave in's. Let the player decide to take the risk or not. Making a potentially lethal mechanic much more manageable, and putting power back in the player's hand.

[mumblemumble]

But underground bases are hardly "broken" at all, they are just a natural good choice. You don't see people saying using cover in shooting games is over powered, its just the smart thing to do, if available. Earthquakes would effect outdoor structures just as much for the most part, and having to deal with so many issues in your home base (which is the area which is supposed to be safe and relatively trouble free) doesn't make sense game-play wise.

[todofwar]

But underground bases are hardly "broken" at all, they are just a natural good choice. You don't see people saying using cover in shooting games is over powered, its just the smart thing to do, if available. Earthquakes would effect outdoor structures just as much for the most part, and having to deal with so many issues in your home base (which is the area which is supposed to be safe and relatively trouble free) doesn't make sense game-play wise.

I just think there should be a natural disaster facing caves more than outdoors, since right now there is thunder and fire and wildlife to be dealt with above ground. After read other people's suggestions though I think the best option is making underground bases harder to build, so that you have to work hard at your nice safe cave. Maybe there could be different types of rock, harder rock can support more ceiling tiles away from itself, but takes longer to mine. Softer rock can only support one or two tiles of ceiling away, but can be mined easily. And have an option to build reinforcements into soft rock to make it sturdier, but this costs metal.

[Morrigi]

I think adding air would work fine for that.  With no ventilation, your colonists would suffocate if they dug too deep.

[todofwar]

Tunnels have a chance of flooding in rainstorms, damage to everything underground.

[maxthebeast11]

It always amuses me that people are so dead set against cave dwelling, even though our ancestors did it quite successfully for millennia. Caves are naturally better that an above ground dwelling in a number of ways. They offer natural defenses. Generally in the form of a single or a few entrances.
They offer great thermal regulation. Rock is a good insulator, caves tend to stay within a fairly narrow temperature range, in both the summer and the winter. Making them Great for Locations with Large Temperature swings. Rock is for most purposes inflammable. Meaning your cave will not catch on fire. though the things inside it can.

In the ancient past we had, in general to limit our scope to natural caves, or those dug out of soft rock. this limits the scope somewhat. Modern mining Techniques allow for a much wider variety of rock that can be carved out for living space. However you still need a good understanding of geology to do this safely. you have to avoid cracks and fault lines where the rock may fail and ensure that you have enough support to maintain your roof.

Ventilation is another primary problem. Carbon dioxide is poisonous to humans and your cave must be designed to allow the gas to easily escape. In ancient times this was accomplished though ventilation shafts in the rock. In modern times we can use fans and pumps to circulate breathable air.

The Question is how do we turn these drawbacks into fun gameplay mechanics? I think tunneling should be much slower, and earthquakes are not a horrible idea, but we need a way for them to be less lethal than the current cave in mechanic.

Having to tunnel in to save your worker is okay, but having the game decide to randomly kill one or more of them is not a fun mechanic.
You could make it an event like the solar Flare. "The moon is reaching the point between the gas giant and its parent star, siesmic activity is likely to be increase for the next 24 hours"
and make it so that there is a chance that you might have one or more cave in's. Let the player decide to take the risk or not. Making a potentially lethal mechanic much more manageable, and putting power back in the player's hand.

There are no natural caves in rimworld.

[Tynan]

I'm considering a happiness penalty for spending a lot of time underground. I think it's reasonable; people get sad if they don't see the sun for a long time.

There's also the idea of creating more reasons to have an aboveground presence. e.g. A resource only available aboveground. Farming would have covered that, but hydroponics solves that problem. Maybe the real issue is that hydroponics are too good and obviate the need to farm large areas.

Mining actually used to be slower but it's somewhat frustrating to have it take so long to make anything underground. This is one of those cases where the proposal (slower mining) would solve the problem (underground bases are imba), but creates its own less obvious problems (frustratingly slow building). And in any case, slower mining just means it takes longer to make an impenetrable underground fortress. It's a late-game problem either way.

In general, as has been noted, the balance of the whole game will continue to change a lot. There are lots of systems to add. So this sort of feedback is really useful, but these kinds of somewhat subtle balance issues aren't of huge immediate concern because they're likely not to last anyway with the game still changing so much.

And re: the book, yes, there's a long and in-depth discussion of degenerate strategies, and how to solve them

[ShadowDragon8685]

I'd advise against that, Tynan. There's already to much that penalizes happiness, that would be just arbitrary. Also, a lot of people don't get much sun, and are fine with that. I don't even LIKE seeing that damn Daystar!

Make it a happiness benefit carrot, and only in nice weather.

[Nasikabatrachus]

I'd advise against that, Tynan. There's already to much that penalizes happiness, that would be just arbitrary.

I'm sure by the time an "underground too long" modifier goes into the game it will be suitably balanced by a whole new set of modifiers.

[ShadowDragon8685]

I'm sure by the time an "underground too long" modifier goes into the game it will be suitably balanced by a whole new set of modifiers.

I really don't think that should be a modifier, though. Unless someone's a claustrophobe or something, being in a properly-made underground dwelling is going to be more or less like living in an earth house. With good air recyclers and a nice large hydroponics farm underground, suffocation would be a non-issue, and with the right amenities, it can be downright pleasant, even luxurious.

Please see: Underground Living. Some people live like this full-time and quite happily.

[DarkThug]

I do agree with Tynan. We are skypeople here, not a fricking dwarf. We can't be content stay underground all year long.

Slow mining  would accomplish something. At least, it will force player to build above ground base early on. If player got everything set above ground there is lower chance they will want to move it underground unless ravaged by raider.

I believe the frustration of slow mining can be solved by non-combat equipment system, a pickaxe for example. Early on without proper tool it can take ages to dig a hole inside the mountain.  Later on, when trader passby and you buy these tools, you can reliably build network of tunnel( or harvest and grow larger field or keep larger area clean). Down side is these diggers will be unable to equip gun, exclude them from fighting force( or encourage more melee battle). 

EDIT: However I don't think hydroponic farm need to be less efficient though. I believe it should still more efficient than above-ground farm. May be more expensive or be a later tier stuff once we get proper research tree.