I have been thinking about how this game kind of cuts corners when it comes to time and work that is done. Here is my opinion, hour cycle is to short and should be stretched to add minutes in a day.
Now I know that this statement is something I talked about before and people said that the time amount per day was fine but I have been working on a project to give credit to my opinion, slower is better.
Couple points to mention to help with understanding what I mean by needed to be extended.
-When I say time needs to be slowed I mean that the player movement should stay the same and the world around them should age slower(But staying the same hours wise).
-Hunger and thirst should be extended. Pawns should be able to go a whole day without touching food or water (maybe even two days for food) before the effects of starvation kick in.
-Pawns should be taking more steps per hour than what they are at currently. The amount of steps (spaces) the pawns take are somewhat short and it feels like they're all just fat and walk slow at normal speeds.
-Construction and other work will then take longer. (Would love more upgrades to stations to make them go faster) This will make it harder to just wall off invades who go into a kill box, (could add a quick build object like a barricade that could be constructed in 8mins.
-Giving more time to the player makes the schedule system extremely more relevant. Right now I personally never touch the schedules unless it's for a night owl.
-Gives colonists more time to plant and tend to small tasks. Right now with the current build I could not give any time to cleaning or other small tasks without wasting a whole 4 hours of the day. Now with the extended time I can set up a scheduled that will get the cleaning done and have plenty of time left over for more important matters.
-Makes other small side tasks like food and hospital care less of a time waster.
(I do have an issue with size of the map relative to the pawn size, since an average human is around 5 to 7ft I would assume that is the size of each tile. But the issue is that it takes a whole hour to walk not even half a mile confuses me so I would then say that the pawn size is just proportional to a 20 ft tile size or something of like that. Even then a pawn should be able to walk 3 to 4 miles in an hour)
The issue I have with time versus movement is that the size of map and pawn distance per hour is extremely retarded.
I would like others opinions on this subject.
Also I am not completely done getting all the information to support my claim and will show my conclusion after completing the entirety of my research.
Side Note * I would love to see the speed of the pawns in 5 times speed if the game was slower than 5 times speed would be sure to make it look like a colony of ants.
i can agree that moving from A to B takes way too long (in ingame hours) with the current setup
I'm perfectly fine with the
pace of the pawns and day/night cycles, but I think progression could be stretched out in some ways to make colony development last longer. There's a transition point after about 1.5 years were you stop doing new things and start doing more of the same, just making the colony bigger, and this is boring IMO. Pretty simple balance tweaks:
- Slight decrease in construction speed
- More locked tech/research tiers, and/or longer research time
- Slight decrease in mean time between negative events and colonists joining
agreed all my +1, you're making me reconsider what the actual problem with hauling priority is, it's a very valid point you make.
Donno but 5.5 minutes per day is a bit stingy imo. Get up , eat, do joy thingies, haul a few things, go back to bed. Rinse repeat. :) Not sure if limited fps to 30 would double the time or not. Some games that works haha.
I definitely agree that it takes far too long to walk places, it's definitely unrealistic. I look forward to seeing your completed data
Have you guys ever walked through the woods? Not in a National/State Forest or Park, where there are level, compacted trails, but through an untamed wilderness, with brush, trees, and unlevel ground everywhere?
That is difficult, and time consuming.
Quote from: Boston on September 17, 2015, 01:28:47 PM
Have you guys ever walked through the woods? Not in a National/State Forest or Park, where there are level, compacted trails, but through an untamed wilderness, with brush, trees, and unlevel ground everywhere?
That is difficult, and time consuming.
your point is?
getting from dormitory, to the fridge, to the table, eat something, go outside... BAM, 3h. passed in the game, and the rooms are small and next to each other
makes no sense.
Quote from: Boston on September 17, 2015, 01:28:47 PM
Have you guys ever walked through the woods? Not in a National/State Forest or Park, where there are level, compacted trails, but through an untamed wilderness, with brush, trees, and unlevel ground everywhere?
That is difficult, and time consuming.
Yes, i tried that but i'm not talking about jungle or pine forest. I'm talking about "normal" forest. In that type of forest i can easily run like i would run on the street. With some problems of course like need to look for obstacles etc. but we're humans after all - we're supposed to run in such forests so you can easily look out for obstacles and succesfuly avoid them without much slowing down.
Also, your logic is "if running in the biggest bushes is so slow then we should slow down movement in general - no matter what. You can run on the nice street but you will run like in the jungle anyway".
Also +1 for the idea and idea someone else talking about researching etc.
Quote from: Fishirboy on September 16, 2015, 11:10:56 AM
I have been thinking about how this game kind of cuts corners when it comes to time and work that is done. Here is my opinion, hour cycle is to short and should be stretched to add minutes in a day.
How about mining ? A real-world miner with a pickaxe can mine about 5cm of rock in a day. In Rimworld, miners are superhumans.
b0rsuk hit the nail on the head - balance and fun before strict realism.
Quote from: akiceabear on September 17, 2015, 08:13:50 PM
b0rsuk hit the nail on the head - balance and fun before strict realism.
i am all in for fun and sepcially for balance.
spending 3h. to wake up and have breakfast, is not balanced.
moving in rimworld, is not balanced. and not fun either.
there is no point in even playing on maps bigger than the default value, because moving (for hunting, hauling and whatnot) is not properly done. by the time a colonist reaches the other side of the map, he's tired, hungry, sleep deprived and will turn around without even completing the task he had.
i agree that venturing into a jungle or thick forest or swamp or whatever should not be easy and should not be quick. but there could be a lot of options to help with this (carry more food, portable tents, etc.)
but the problem presents itself even without leaving the base. a base with 100% walkspeed floors, with kitchen next to bedrooms and it still takes colonists 3h. to get from bed to fridge and to the dining table, when it's all in under 20 tiles distance.
I think it helps to view days as more of an abstraction, rather than precise. I'd rather dev time went elsewhere.
Quote from: akiceabear on September 18, 2015, 06:22:52 AM
I think it helps to view days as more of an abstraction, rather than precise. I'd rather dev time went elsewhere.
i wish this was possible... but your colonistss need X amount of time to do stuff, and they get tired and hungry and mad...
it's not about how long it takes to do something, it's not about a month having less days than real. it's about the time needed to actually GET THERE what doesn't seem balanced.
you can mine a mountain in 5 game hours, but you need 3h. to breakfast and 4h. to get to the mountain?
it's not about it being unreal or abstract, it's about not getting anything done on bigger maps (and even on small maps) because the travel time is out of proportion with everything else.
We're actually already doubling the day length (ticks per day) for the next alpha.
Since this is on a different planet with different rotational periods. (And a wobbly axis given how often days change lol) can we do away with the months? Just use the 4 seasons instead?
I have a idea but this wouldbe more time consuming for Tynan.
Smaller planets should rotate faster and bigger planets - slower. So players could choose what speed they want. Or this can be a simple option when creating world/map or something.
I know this isn't a rule in real life because some collision can slow down rotation etc. but this would make at least a minimal sense.
Quote from: Tynan on September 18, 2015, 09:49:42 AM
We're actually already doubling the day length (ticks per day) for the next alpha.
Happy day :)
Note that doubling ticks in the day doesn't mean your pawn will get anything done faster in player time, just that there will be twice as much day and night in each cycle... I like the idea of longer days/seasons, just commenting that it doesn't address the relative time required for tasks mentioned here unless rebalanced significantly in addition.
One possible way the change mentioned by Tynan will help is if nutrition needs are scaled to the new day. Meals will still take time, but take place less frequently (by player time). That said, changing the relative times needed for most tasks has very large implications for gameplay - Eg if mountain digging becomes too easy or hard versus construction outside. I personally find the current balance reasonable.
I'm not sympathetic to complaints about distance and travel time. The game clearly isn't aiming for pure realism with regards to scale: all of the power structures are completely misscaled, for example a geothermal plant the size of a few queen size beds. Anyway, the largest map sizes should feel big - if you can traverse it in a hour it isn't functionally any different than a small map. A better solution is improved pawn AI regarding taking meals and rests mid task.
Quote from: Tynan on September 18, 2015, 09:49:42 AM
We're actually already doubling the day length (ticks per day) for the next alpha.
Nice!
Looks like day tics are changing. He didn't say night tics where(could be making more out of it than it is though haha) which means less sleepy and more getting stuff done. Sounds perty good to me. And if waiting around for travel times is the actual complaint, fast forward is still there?
My read is day=24 hours, doubling a day includes both daytime and nighttime ticks - but again, just my read.
prolly right, wishful thinkin :P
Longer days and nights means night owls get more time to get stuff done at night, too :)
I have yet to do it yet, but I'm super stoked to start my first nocturnal colony once the day lengths are extended.
Quote from: Tynan on September 18, 2015, 09:49:42 AM
We're actually already doubling the day length (ticks per day) for the next alpha.
Honest question: why? The game already feels barren, colonies just run on autopilot until the monthly raid happens, so what's the purpose behind increasing downtime even more?
@Elite
O_o good point lol. Soooo gonna try that if I remember :P
@NIA
mods I suppose. Not so much weapon based mods as they don't really add additional time sinks for the most part.
Native may feel that way though. Haven't played straight up native for ages so couldn't say. Slider would be welcome for cycle lengths but prolly a pain in the butt otherwise I'd think we'd already have something like it. Even just a few steps would maybe be enough, 1x-1.5x-2x etc.
Quote from: FMJ Penguin on September 19, 2015, 05:56:04 AM
@NIA
mods I suppose. Not so much weapon based mods as they don't really add additional time sinks for the most part.
Native may feel that way though. Haven't played straight up native for ages so couldn't say. Slider would be welcome for cycle lengths but prolly a pain in the butt otherwise I'd think we'd already have something like it. Even just a few steps would maybe be enough, 1x-1.5x-2x etc.
Mods aren't a very good reason to rebalance vanilla. If this is the real concern they should just make day length and other tick-based activities more easily moddable.
Quote from: akiceabear on September 19, 2015, 06:41:39 AM
Quote from: FMJ Penguin on September 19, 2015, 05:56:04 AM
@NIA
mods I suppose. Not so much weapon based mods as they don't really add additional time sinks for the most part.
Native may feel that way though. Haven't played straight up native for ages so couldn't say. Slider would be welcome for cycle lengths but prolly a pain in the butt otherwise I'd think we'd already have something like it. Even just a few steps would maybe be enough, 1x-1.5x-2x etc.
Mods aren't a very good reason to rebalance vanilla. If this is the real concern they should just make day length and other tick-based activities more easily moddable.
very true
Although, it seems some folks are overwhelmed even in native? Donno
shrugs
Quote from: FMJ Penguin on September 19, 2015, 07:44:39 AM
Although, it seems some folks are overwhelmed even in native? Donno shrugs
it's not that i feel overwhelmed by the current state of vanilla, it just doesn't make sense to me or balanced, that your colonists need 3h. to wake up and take breakfast. 8h. to kill a few invading raids, and above all: 3h. to load, aim and shoot a mortar (when that has it's own display showing 50 seconds)
doubling the time it takes for a day will fix some of those things, specially related to moving from A to B within a reasonable and more balanced amount of time.
Quotedoubling the time it takes for a day will fix some of those things, specially related to moving from A to B within a reasonable and more balanced amount of time.
You aren't talking about balance (is the relative distribution of time needed for tasks reasonable within the game play), you're talking about realism (does the number of tasks I finish in 1 game hour match what I can do in 1 real world hour).
Also, doubling the the time in each day possibly will change your gameplay zero, assuming the relative ticks required for each task are maintained or simply scaled up. Yes, you can fit more in a "day", but you will fit the exact same amount of actions in 1 (real world) hour of play.
Quote from: akiceabear on September 19, 2015, 12:30:49 PM
Also, doubling the the time in each day possibly will change your gameplay zero, assuming the relative ticks required for each task are maintained or simply scaled up. Yes, you can fit more in a "day", but you will fit the exact same amount of actions in 1 (real world) hour of play.
Don't even know what to say to that bro. I never thought of myself as a fanboy by any means but even I have that much faith in the dev team. Have to be pretty clueless to double AND scale everything along with it. Right back to square one. :P
Actually I'd kinda like to see it happen just like that. Just to see the interesting threads coming out of it ;D DO IT Tynan!! You know you wanna......
Quote from: Tynan on September 18, 2015, 09:49:42 AM
We're actually already doubling the day length (ticks per day) for the next alpha.
I fear it will make seasons and aging less of an issue if each day is too long. But I guess there will be more that has to be done as well, and rebalaning by making some work take longer.