[Alpha 11] Sappers. Challenge accepted.

[NoImageAvailable]

I don't want any digging unless the enemy is high tech spacers with mining eq. And ground sonar to detect the hollow space that is your base.

The whole point of sappers, as they developed, was to undermine defences. The term even comes from the old French word for digging, I believe. They dug trenches for your artillery and then mined underground to destabilise your walls by creating wood-supported chambers underneath them. They would then set fire to the supports to cause a cave-in or, with the advent of gunpowder, blow them to smithereens with underground charges. Just running up and lobbing grenades is not the action of a sapper, it is what a grenadier would do. Sappers are slow and careful and clever and digging quietly into the side of your base, or underneath your walls, is their MO. You do not need sonar or any other specialised equipment, just picks and shovels, muscles and patience. In the 16th century, at the siege of Godesberg, sappers dug into the side of the mountain on which the fortress sat and then blew it up to cause a wall collapse. Try and look at some of the remarkable info on the tunnels dug in WW1, for a relatively recent example. If anything, Tynan is underplaying their effectiveness.

Modern day sappers are general-purpose combat engineers who carry out a wide variety of tasks from construction of defenses, airfields, etc. over minelaying to demolitions work (which generally means sticking plastic explosives on bridges and other structures, digging tunnels below enemy defenses died out after WWI). The thing you are forgetting is that in your examples the defenses were easily visible and their location known. You don't see the inside of a bunker and just because you know the location of the entrance doesn't mean you know how it is laid out internally, you need advanced equipment for that.

[Frankenbeasley]

Modern day sappers are general-purpose combat engineers who carry out a wide variety of tasks from construction of defenses, airfields, etc. over minelaying to demolitions work (which generally means sticking plastic explosives on bridges and other structures, digging tunnels below enemy defenses died out after WWI). The thing you are forgetting is that in your examples the defenses were easily visible and their location known. You don't see the inside of a bunker and just because you know the location of the entrance doesn't mean you know how it is laid out internally, you need advanced equipment for that.

True, but you must not disregard the fact that we are on a Rimworld, where people are still fighting with clubs and bows and arrows, clubs and spears. The pirates and outlanders may have charge rifles,if they're lucky, but those weapons appear to have been bought in - I don't think anyone's manufacturing them on-planet. Therefore, the 'sappers' are unlikely to be trained engineers in the modern sense, but are far more likely to equate to the sappers of WWI (a conflict which saw both cavalry charges and tank assaults) who were, on the British end, drawn from the mining communities. I would assume that sonar/radar equipment for ground penetration and mapping would be unlikely on a world where armed assaults take place for the purpose of stealing steel ingots and dead boomrat.

Whilst there is no doubt that advanced equipment exists throughout the galaxy, the basic premise of RW as I understand it, is that our situation is closer to that of the old Wild West frontier lands than it is to Starship Troopers. So, given the dearth of high-tech help, sappers are going to have to return to their roots. The may not know the internal layout of a bunker, but if they know where the entrance is they can have a reasonable guess at where they might need to start digging - they simply have to hope they get lucky.

[TLHeart]

I hope that the sappers do not dig through walls then. It would be bad gameplay if some raiders dug to my cooling vents and destroyed them...

I want the AI to not know where my colony is in the mountain, only that there is an entrance to it.

I want the opportunity to hide other entrances that I may create so that I can use them without too much fear of raiders going to them all the time for being a weak spot.

TL; DR, the AI still knows the important things that matter the most to a colony.

but the AI does know where your base is from activity. And those vents give a heat signature that is not natural, and should attract attention.  Most sieges are not successful without the use of sappers.... who find another way in... while the bombardment keeps you distracted.

Any entrance is a week spot, and should be attacked at different times... you should always have a fear of a week spot being exploited. And that includes power lines, heat and cooling vents, doors.

[Tynan]

Well, there's always the possibility I'll complexify the enemy knowledge model in the future.

But, one step at a time. Knowledge modeling tends to be very difficult and most players just interpret the results as the AI being dumb. Let's try it this way and see how it works out.

[Kegereneku]

Don't hope to get away like that Tynan, we will not be satisfied until you code an transhuman l33t-gamer mind into each pawn AI, have them verbally discuss between them the attack plan after recognizing the base through direct visual sight and immediately attack the weakpoint.

What do you think you are making, a game ?

[RickyMartini]

Also don't forget to add relationships and leaderships to each individual raider forming squads and friendships for A12 

[Sir_Aroun]

Lets face facts, killboxs (at least the way they are currently made) are a cheap AI/game exploit use by players that are too lazy, dumb, or scared to play the game properly.  You shouldn't be able to win the game forever just by building a one block thick wall and a box at the entrance filled with turrets.

Sieges, Airdrops, Mechanoids, and now Sappers where/are all put in to stop players from cheating and get them to play the game. Attacks should be threats not a minor inconvenience or loot piñatas. 

That out of the way their are some problems
A) Bad Natural Population Growth, People just moving in is VERY rare. It be nice if beauty/art, wealth, and good relations attracted more people to join.
- This may be fix "

Re-tuned storyteller population intent based on new output tables for smoother population gain with higher maximum and better recovery at small populations"

B) Raids are (almost) ALWAYS lethal. Some more hit and run raids were they are trying to get things and slaves over killing and burning would be nice
C) Lack of Weapons (Mainly Guns), It can be hard to get everyone armed. This would not be a problem except for A and B
D) Lack of Embrasures, Towers and/or Battlements

[Toggle]

Hey, ho, let's bring up a big fat NO!

Lets face facts, killboxs (at least the way they are currently made) are a cheap AI/game exploit use by players that are too lazy, dumb, or scared to play the game properly.  You shouldn't be able to win the game forever just by building a one block thick wall and a box at the entrance filled with turrets.

Sieges, Airdrops, Mechanoids, and now Sappers where/are all put in to stop players from cheating and get them to play the game. Attacks should be threats not a minor inconvenience or loot pi�atas. 

Oh, yeah I totally agree, using a method of survival in a game based on survival, and where it's the only actual current efficient method, is totally, utterly cheating. Give me a better strategy on how to efficiently, without killing or rapidly injuring multiple people, and without having to manage every move they take so they don't get shot to death, fend off enemies. It is playing the game, just because it's not playing the way YOU want us to doesn't mean it's suddenly cheating and not playing properly, seriously mate...

[Chaotic Skies]

*snip*

Honestly I play on flat maps without kill boxes or walls and have turrets placed throughout the base. Works well for anyone who makes it through my lines of colonists.

Also great for berserk prisoners/colonists.

[TLHeart]

kill boxes are a natural strategy to survival.  Even those of us who play without the one tile wide entrance into a walled in box filled with turrets, set up advantage points, where we can safely take down the enemy hordes. It takes a little more thought, a whole lot less power and steel, and some battle skill. 

It is another way to play the game.

Turrets are an option not a necessity. latest colony now at day 250, still has NO turrets, and I have 28 colonists, and 2 dead. Last raid of mech was 5 sythers and 5 centipedes. With no turrets to attack, they spread out, which it makes it very easy to flank them and kill them.

Same with the raiders, they spread out. I loose a few doors. Tribals, new recruits as they charge down the streets to be slaughtered.

[Sir_Aroun]

Hey, ho, let's bring up a big fat NO!

Lets face facts, killboxs (at least the way they are currently made) are a cheap AI/game exploit use by players that are too lazy, dumb, or scared to play the game properly.  You shouldn't be able to win the game forever just by building a one block thick wall and a box at the entrance filled with turrets.

Sieges, Airdrops, Mechanoids, and now Sappers where/are all put in to stop players from cheating and get them to play the game. Attacks should be threats not a minor inconvenience or loot pi�atas. 

Oh, yeah I totally agree, using a method of survival in a game based on survival, and where it's the only actual current efficient method, is totally, utterly cheating. Give me a better strategy on how to efficiently, without killing or rapidly injuring multiple people, and without having to manage every move they take so they don't get shot to death, fend off enemies. It is playing the game, just because it's not playing the way YOU want us to doesn't mean it's suddenly cheating and not playing properly, seriously mate...

No, it is a exploit. It only works because the AI is STUPID. And yes I count Cheeseing and exploiting the game to be cheating. It may be justifiable for now do to some problems (like the ones I listed) but don't give this BS about it being a "style of play". If you did not want to deal with raids and risk losing people WHY are you even playing with raids on? Because that is what killboxs do, they negate raids as a real threats.

Also Note a Killbox is not the same as a gatehouse. The "the one tile wide entrance into a walled in box filled with turrets" is the kind of killbox I am talking. the kind that just exploit the game's AI and pathing.

[Sir_Aroun]

kill boxes are a natural strategy to survival.  Even those of us who play without the one tile wide entrance into a walled in box filled with turrets, set up advantage points, where we can safely take down the enemy hordes. It takes a little more thought, a whole lot less power and steel, and some battle skill. 

It is another way to play the game.

Turrets are an option not a necessity. latest colony now at day 250, still has NO turrets, and I have 28 colonists, and 2 dead. Last raid of mech was 5 sythers and 5 centipedes. With no turrets to attack, they spread out, which it makes it very easy to flank them and kill them.

Same with the raiders, they spread out. I loose a few doors. Tribals, new recruits as they charge down the streets to be slaughtered.

What your talking about is not what I am really talking about when I say Killboxs. Gatehouse, defensive positions their not the problem.  The "the one tile wide entrance into a walled in box filled with turrets" is the kind of killbox I am talking about and yes they are cheep, lazy, and a export (which is a type of cheating to me).

[Anduin1357]

Whether or not a killbox is considered cheating, if it's doable without dev mode, it's no longer cheating. It has already become a considered and legitimate way of playing Rimworld. Even Tynan has acknowledged it with his sappers AI update.

We have never been cheating, we played within the bounds of the game. We only took advantage of the pathing AI of the raiders to continue our games, that's all.

[Turps]

I wouldn't say killboxes are cheating, it is a way of dealing with most of the threats in game though and there is prolley 50+ different types ye can make. If that's what you wanna do go for it.

My question is if you put turrets field of fire covering all walls around the base what will the sapper do? just give up or pick a random spot or run circles around the base?

and is there a tunnelling mech coming too?? or something similar?

[Rahjital]

Is camping in Counter Strike cheating? Is zerg rush in Starcraft cheating? Yes, some frown upon them because they are not as fun as playing the game other ways, but they are legimitate strategies allowed by the game. Same with killboxes, putting two dozen turrets next to your entrance may make you safe forever in Alpha 10, but the game allowed it. Cheating would be blasting the raiders through dev mode, and even then the player would only ruin the experience for himself.

Knowledge modeling tends to be very difficult and most players just interpret the results as the AI being dumb. Let's try it this way and see how it works out.

Honestly this is what I'm afraid of the most, that raiders will seem even more stupid than before.