I like the idea of roofs being able to collapse due to over-mining, but I don't like it when they collapse on a worker who's simply deconstructing a small 9x9 outdoor room because I forgot to use the tedious "no-roof" zone tool--and it is tedious. It's not only annoying, it breaks immersion. The reason I always forget to de-zone is because it's not intuitive. It's not intuitive because why, in reality, would anyone ever pull down a wall and let the roof fall on them? It doesn't even occur to me when I play. Shouldn't the colonists be a little smarter than that? Well, regardless, my argument is that the game should be.
This is the #1 annoying thing in the game for me. It's like the game is trolling me. "Ha tricked you! You forgot to do that one thing in that one menu and now I killed your colonist!" Yeah, that was fun.
Suggestion:
The "please de-zone the roof" should be implicit in the deconstruction tool. If I drag "deconstruct" over an area, please remove/de-zone the roof simultaneously by default--that seems to be the simplest way to implement my suggestion. If the roof gets built by default when I construct a wall, it makes perfect sense to me that it gets automatically deconstructed when I deconstruct the wall. Just combine "no roof zone" with "deconstruct" for every square I drag over.
PS
Honestly, I would prefer roof collapse be entirely removed from the game than have it remain in its current form. But that's not my suggestion. I guarantee you, though, that if nothing is done about this, many new players will experience the grief that I do (and I'm not a new player).
Eh, every outdoor room I've seen never had a roof.
Quote[...] I guarantee you, [...] many player [...]
I hate such statements. They occure in every forum related to a game. Often enough, the TO is mad about something, valid or not, and wants to force the dev(s) to change something in TOs way by generating the pressure with a "so many player have to suffer from this" statement.
This is statement is untenable and lacks of credibility, as well as good behavior.
Also, I can't comprehend. Never got such a problem. If a roof breaks, I did a mistake. This is for sure not the games fault.
I don't like this mechanics too, so he is right. There is also another part of players that build outdoor storages so i think this should be optional.
Pawns don't know your intentions. They can only do what you literally tell them to do.
how i just *face plam* you want a difculty try playing the game on hardmode with imbolized guy and i only have 3 guys with goddam trade ship case the game hates me right then and there welcome to living hell with anly 1 hunting rifle and 1 pistal fighting off waves of 15-20 tirbes and every once in a while pirates and burn all my food down and now they have to eat these tribals for a few days then a ship lands in base this is the game hahahahahahhahahahaahhaahhaahhahahahahahhahahaahahh that is welcome to hell and then i say to hells face i was alredy in hell and then all my guys died they end hahahahahahahaahhahahahahahahahahahahahha i got you. wel that about hell was just bull shit but i still had fun even tho it was that stiped.
'the f**k did I just read?
artificial roofs shouldn't collapse except maybe in combat. Its annoying. When you mine a mountain? Sure, that makes a lot more sense.
i think the whole roof mechanic needs an overhaul
to me, it makes no sense that i build a room with just a small opening and it stays "unroofed" until i put a door there. are you telling me that a 1x1 door is what determines if something can have a roof or not? doesn't make sense.
also, like op said, deconstructing something on purpose, should automatically take care of roofing so it doesn't collapse on you. i like micromanaging. but micromanaging stuff that makes sense, please.
having to keep a column here and there while building roofs or mining is ok, that makes sense.
also, something that might need to be rebalanced, is the "abuse" of putting a gun turret next to a support column so enemies kill themselves with roof collapse. maybe make enemies smarter (like they are with traps now) about this?
Yeah, deconstruct should have an auto-unroofer on it. That's a pretty obvious UX improvement, and I don't think we really lose anything valuable in terms of gameplay from it. It isn't like any of us design colonies or even parts of colonies around the idea that a deconstructed wall will cause a roof collapse.
Note the difference between deconstructed and destroyed.
But on that note, for players who DO design parts of colonies around the idea that *destroyed* walls will cause a roof collapse, I also think abusing the AI by putting turrets next to support columns is pretty bogus. Even though I've totally used it, myself.
Quote from: Z0MBIE2 on July 23, 2015, 03:01:54 AM
Eh, every outdoor room I've seen never had a roof.
Every house you've ever seen is an outdoor room, though.
I was thinking Tynan would eventually make roofs a thing you had to construct piece by piece, with supports and everything. I mean it's pretty early in development so he'll be getting on to that topic probably at a later date.
Quote from: jpwrunyan on July 23, 2015, 02:20:05 AM
Shouldn't the colonists be a little smarter than that? .
Should the colonist be smarter than the average construction worker in real life?
Just do a quick google search of all the roof collapses that happen during demolition of buildings due to not so smart workers.
here is a video of colonist not removing the roof first....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMVrt5zHpOg
and a worker died in this roof collapse...
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865574273/Roof-collapses-kills-worker-in-Brigham-City.html?pg=all
so roof collapses need to part of the game. Could there be a better depiction that an area is roofed, yes.
For a player to forget about an area being roofed, well a dead colonists is the risk.
Honestly, finding exceptional examples of carelessness and casting that as the "average" construction worker is kind of ... let's not do that kind of thing. The average construction worker is fully capable of realizing that you need to remove the roof or check its supports before knocking down a wall.
Also, while construction accidents are a real-world risk, I have to ask whether that's enough to justify its inclusion in the game. See, it's just that when I'm watching my bionically enhanced space castaway fire a plasma rifle at mechanical centipedes to protect a solar panel he built by hand out of raw iron ore, "realism" isn't high on my list of must-haves.
Quote from: hairlessOrphan on July 23, 2015, 03:37:16 PM
Quote from: Z0MBIE2 on July 23, 2015, 03:01:54 AM
Eh, every outdoor room I've seen never had a roof.
Every house you've ever seen is an outdoor room, though.
Just don't, don't be a smart ass.
The system seems to work fine for me. I've only ever had a colonist die from a roof collapse due to it being a hard roof so it would always require something supporting it. Ignoring their intelligence or not, it doesn't really need to be changed.
Quote from: Z0MBIE2 on July 23, 2015, 04:56:28 PM
Quote from: hairlessOrphan on July 23, 2015, 03:37:16 PM
Quote from: Z0MBIE2 on July 23, 2015, 03:01:54 AM
Eh, every outdoor room I've seen never had a roof.
Every house you've ever seen is an outdoor room, though.
Just don't, don't be a smart ass.
No, see, the point is that it's true. Originally, there was nothing but the outdoors. Then someone built walls and a roof.
What I'm trying to get at here is that the idea of "an outdoor room" is silly. They're not materially different than "indoor rooms." It's a room. It's walls and maybe a roof.
Quote from: hairlessOrphan on July 23, 2015, 04:38:03 PM
Honestly, finding exceptional examples of carelessness and casting that as the "average" construction worker is kind of ... let's not do that kind of thing. The average construction worker is fully capable of realizing that you need to remove the roof or check its supports before knocking down a wall.
Also, while construction accidents are a real-world risk, I have to ask whether that's enough to justify its inclusion in the game. See, it's just that when I'm watching my bionically enhanced space castaway fire a plasma rifle at mechanical centipedes to protect a solar panel he built by hand out of raw iron ore, "realism" isn't high on my list of must-haves.
But those are not exceptional examples, those are everyday examples of the carelessness of people. The colonists are no smarter, it is up to the player/god to keep them safe.
If you as a player are playing so quickly, that you forget to remove a roof, and a colonist suffers, well that is not the games fault, but yours. You know there is a roof on the room. Yes there could be a better graphical representation that a roof is present... hard to see the shadow the roof casts.
Have I forgotten to remove a roof, yes, and I have suffered for it ONCE.... I learned from that mistake. I do not expect the game to make decisions like that for me.
Honestly the fact that my colonists can die annoy me and have ruined most of my play, I really wish Tynan made them immortal or I'm sure lots of players will switch to another game :p :p
Quote from: kaptain_kavern on July 23, 2015, 06:05:12 PM
Honestly the fact that my colonists can die annoy me and have ruined most of my play, I really wish Tynan made them immortal or I'm sure lots of players will switch to another game :p :p
And when you are removing the cave ins/collapsing roofs please make it rain plasteel and meat instead of water or I will stop playing this game.
Quote from: JuliaEllie on July 23, 2015, 06:11:30 PM
Quote from: kaptain_kavern on July 23, 2015, 06:05:12 PM
Honestly the fact that my colonists can die annoy me and have ruined most of my play, I really wish Tynan made them immortal or I'm sure lots of players will switch to another game :p :p
And when you are removing the cave ins/collapsing roofs please make it rain plasteel and meat instead of water or I will stop playing this game.
Oh, c'mon y'all. Let's be fair about this. This isn't about removing challenge from the game, is it?
The roof thing is not a strategic decision. There's no trade-off, there's no difficulty or challenge to it. It doesn't cost you resources. There's no thought involved. It's just A Thing You Must Remember. Click to Not Lose.
I don't feel like these add a lot to games. Maybe you do, ok, and that's a discussion worth having. But to equate "Banish Click to Not Lose" with "Never Let Me Lose" is like a textbook fallacy, isn't it?
Quote from: TLHeart on July 23, 2015, 05:56:09 PM
But those are not exceptional examples, those are everyday examples of the carelessness of people. The colonists are no smarter, it is up to the player/god to keep them safe.
So I just Googled it, and I don't know how much I trust this number, but:
http://www.usgbc.org/articles/green-building-facts
A billion square feet of buildings are demolished per year. That's a lot of dead construction workers annually, if this is an "everyday" thing.
Quote from: hairlessOrphan on July 23, 2015, 05:00:58 PM
Quote from: Z0MBIE2 on July 23, 2015, 04:56:28 PM
Quote from: hairlessOrphan on July 23, 2015, 03:37:16 PM
Quote from: Z0MBIE2 on July 23, 2015, 03:01:54 AM
Eh, every outdoor room I've seen never had a roof.
Every house you've ever seen is an outdoor room, though.
Just don't, don't be a smart ass.
No, see, the point is that it's true. Originally, there was nothing but the outdoors. Then someone built walls and a roof.
What I'm trying to get at here is that the idea of "an outdoor room" is silly. They're not materially different than "indoor rooms." It's a room. It's walls and maybe a roof.
Yep, you see you're being a smartass. I'm talking about the ruins found on maps, as I've never had a problem with de-constructing a room and having it collapse on a colonist.
Also, I want to point out for whoever said this, it can't be roofed if the area is big enough, meaning if you have no door and the area is the entire map, it's too large for it to be roofed. That's because if it did roof that room, it wouldn't roof just that building, since it's connected to the outside, your entire map would be roofed, and then fall apart because there's no supports. So everything would be crushed.
Just make roof tiles a construction that can be taken down. I don't see the issue here.
Quote from: Z0MBIE2 on July 23, 2015, 06:38:35 PM
I'm talking about the ruins found on maps,
Oh. I actually really did not realize this. I thought you were actually talking about, like, real world rooms. My fault.
It would be nice for a simple check when deconstructing:
<pseudo-code>
if( buildingToRemove.WouldCollapseRoof() && buildingToRemove.Roof.IsRemovable() )
RoofGrid.Remove( buildingToRemove.Position, buildingToRemove.Roof.SupportRadius );
</pseudo-code>
Or, just remember to un-roof a section first.
Make the mistake once? Annoying.
Make it twice? Still annoying but you should remember it by now.
Do it a 6th time? You're an idiot. Game shouldn't change because some players are careless. That's all this comes down to really.
Quote from: Elixiar on July 23, 2015, 07:28:17 PM
Do it a 6th time? You're an idiot. Game shouldn't change because some players are careless. That's all this comes down to really.
I guess that's a misconception we should address. I've never lost a colonist to a collapsing roof. I've never forgotten to remove the roof.
Does removing the roof add even a little bit of enjoyment and entertainment to the game for me? Nope. Not even a little. It's menial deadweight.
That's what this really comes down to. I'd like to see menial deadweight removed from this game.
So my most probable misconception about the other side of this argument is that I think most of you are just defending the status quo because criticism makes people uncomfortable. Maybe I could learn something from an argument for why highlighting roof tiles is fun.
Please make it rain sniperrifles and survivalcapsules, meat and medicin. everything else is unplayable. me and many other players will quit rimworld if you dont.
Quote from: Sempie on July 24, 2015, 01:28:42 AM
Please make it rain sniperrifles and survivalcapsules, meat and medicin. everything else is unplayable. me and many other players will quit rimworld if you dont.
please remove all closeminded douche smartasses like the quoted one from forums or me and many other players will quit rimworld if you dont
Quote from: hairlessOrphan on July 23, 2015, 07:27:19 PM
Quote from: Z0MBIE2 on July 23, 2015, 06:38:35 PM
I'm talking about the ruins found on maps,
Oh. I actually really did not realize this. I thought you were actually talking about, like, real world rooms. My fault.
Yeah sorry I wasn't very clear either.
And this thread is getting quite a bit hostile, so let's all just calm down.