Messing around with priorities are excellent but there is more that could be added as in moving the tasks around. and giving the player more levels of priority. Level 1-4 is not very much for me.
Let me give an example: (http://i.imgur.com/mndToIV.png)
I want hunting to be further back and make hauling come forward. Or I would like to make smith through craft decrease in priority but I still want hauling to be a higher priority. I know there is no way at the moment to do this but would it not me simple to give me 9 levels vs only 4?
Edit: 3:10 8/27/15
Also could there be a grouping mechanic were they have there own scheduled and priority list? (Referring back to Dwarf Fortress)
I agree I wish for just 1 or two more priority numbers, 1-5 maybe
i thought like you too. then i learned how to properly use the <=== ===> priorities too, which gives you 4*20=80 possibilities
Yeah, as zand pointed out, you're not utilizing it fully. Stuff in the front has higher priority then that in the back, meaning you're ignoring a whole number, 1, which could be used. Like if construct and repair are 2, repair is 2.10 because it's behind construct while construct is 2.9, making repair lower priority.
Quote from: Z0MBIE2 on August 27, 2015, 03:28:49 PM
Yeah, as zand pointed out, you're not utilizing it fully. Stuff in the front has higher priority then that in the back, meaning you're ignoring a whole number, 1, which could be used. Like if construct and repair are 2, repair is 2.10 because it's behind construct while construct is 2.9, making repair lower priority.
I think he is utilizing it as best he can. Even using the <<<< and >>>> priority, there is still no way to do what he was asking. He still can't keep Crafting/Smithing and Haul as 4, but have them do Haul as the higher priority.
Quote from: zandadoum on August 27, 2015, 03:19:05 PM
i thought like you too. then i learned how to properly use the <=== ===> priorities too, which gives you 4*20=80 possibilities
As I mentioned above, He still can't do what he would like to using these. Having more priority numbers could definitely help things out a bit
And considering he mentioned that he wishes he could move haul forward and hunting back, I'd say its a safe bet that he knows how the <<<< and >>>> work, they just can't do what it is he would like and so are no help.
Quote from: IronjawJimbo on August 27, 2015, 04:25:53 PM
Quote from: Z0MBIE2 on August 27, 2015, 03:28:49 PM
Yeah, as zand pointed out, you're not utilizing it fully. Stuff in the front has higher priority then that in the back, meaning you're ignoring a whole number, 1, which could be used. Like if construct and repair are 2, repair is 2.10 because it's behind construct while construct is 2.9, making repair lower priority.
I think he is utilizing it as best he can. Even using the <<<< and >>>> priority, there is still no way to do what he was asking. He still can't keep Crafting/Smithing and Haul as 4, but have them do Haul as the higher priority.
He isn't though? He only has the 1st options as one, and if only the options on the left are 1, he could have any option on the right as priority 1 too, and keep the priorities the same. warden, construct, repair etc all on 2 could go to 1, all the 3's to 2 or leave some as 3, and boom. And for what he describes, doesn't make much sense.
Hunting is 4, hauling is 3, smith and craft are 4. He said make smith and craft decreases, for what? They're decreased to the lowest priority out of all of them at the moment. And hunting further back? You mean make it lower priority, if he did the lowering method I said in the above he could make the other smith and crafts 3 and keep hunting 4. Also not to mention this is a general thread, not even suggestions.
Quote from: IronjawJimbo on August 27, 2015, 04:28:39 PM
And considering he mentioned that he wishes he could move haul forward and hunting back, I'd say its a safe bet that he knows how the <<<< and >>>> work, they just can't do what it is he would like and so are no help.
As for this, he clearly doesn't because he doesn't fully utilize priority 1 with them.
I have to agree with Zombie - his method is how I utilize the manual priority numbering.
I typically have the Firefight, Patient, and Flick all designated as "1" for everyone, then - based on their highest skill - I designate that skill as a "1" as well. I then designate "2" "3" and "4" based off their next highest skills and my needs for the colony. Going about it this way rarely leaves me with any issue.
EDIT: And this is a running thing. Micromanaging does require actual management; I change the numbering around as needed. It isn't effective at all in any possibility that comes to mind where you simply tag it at the start and then never touch it again.
Oh but he can if he understands the priority system.
Here is how franklin the settler is set up now.
Franklin will do firefighting 1.0, Doctor 1.1, Patient 1.2, and flick 1.3 in that order. set to priority 1.
next he will do; warden 2.0, construction 2.1, repair 2.2, growing 2.3, plant cut 2.4, in that order, all set to priority 2.
next he has mining 3.0, hauling 3.1, cleaning 3.2 in that order, set to 3.
To make hauling come forward, set hauling to a 1, which for franklin it becomes job 1.4, or if you want franklin to construct first then haul, set hauling to a 2, and that job becomes job number 2.5.
The way he is approaching the job priorities, he is NOT actually changing most of the priorities.
On a slightly related note, anyone else annoyed how we start on priority 3 for everything? I don't get the use for that, as now it requires 4 clicks to get it to less priority.
Quote from: Z0MBIE2 on August 27, 2015, 05:04:15 PM
On a slightly related note, anyone else annoyed how we start on priority 3 for everything? I don't get the use for that, as now it requires 4 clicks to get it to less priority.
There were complaints about it being defaulted to 4.
The best default when changing to manual priorities, would be NOTHING, blank.
Quote from: TLHeart on August 27, 2015, 05:34:29 PM
Quote from: Z0MBIE2 on August 27, 2015, 05:04:15 PM
On a slightly related note, anyone else annoyed how we start on priority 3 for everything? I don't get the use for that, as now it requires 4 clicks to get it to less priority.
There were complaints about it being defaulted to 4.
The best default when changing to manual priorities, would be NOTHING, blank.
But then they wouldn't do the skill at all, although actually I do see your point since you can always change it with 1 click.
Quote from: Z0MBIE2 on August 27, 2015, 05:04:15 PM
On a slightly related note, anyone else annoyed how we start on priority 3 for everything? I don't get the use for that, as now it requires 4 clicks to get it to less priority.
If you right click it goes in the other direction.
Starting in the middle makes it easier to deprioritize one task, taking only one click rather than change all other priorities to be higher. I like the current system.
I've always felt a few more numbers would still come in handy for full customization. If you wanted to reverse a colonists' roles completely from the default priority, there's no way to do this.
I'm also not a big fan of the manual priorities starting out at 3. I understand the logic of it to make going up and down initially easier, but I still don't like it. It's more clicks to turn tasks off completely, which is usually my first order of business.
I'll throw in my plug about presets for priorities (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=4324.0) as well. In modern context, it would seem we could build on the clothing system or similar to implement.
Quote from: TLHeart on August 27, 2015, 05:34:29 PM
The best default when changing to manual priorities, would be NOTHING, blank.
Agree with this. If I'm selecting manual priorities, I have no issues starting with a clean slate and rearranging everything.
Idk if anyone has said this yet, but you guys need to learn how the priorities function, from left to right, the pawns will consider a skill more important than a similar skill of the same number, for instance, a doctor with 1 will always heal first, even if his patient is at 1, this allows for the 4 numbers to spread out immensely, you SHOULD NOT need a higher priority than 3 on any colonist at any given time with how innumerous the skills are and the genius way theyre laid out in the overview.
So use your numbers to their fullest extent, you DONT need to set a skill a different number just cuz you want them to do it after another one.
Quote from: akiceabear on August 27, 2015, 07:08:55 PM
If you right click it goes in the other direction.
Oh, huh. Didn't know that. That'll help a lot.
Quote from: userfredle on August 27, 2015, 07:54:11 PM
Idk if anyone has said this yet, but you guys need to learn how the priorities function, from left to right, the pawns will consider a skill more important than a similar skill of the same number, for instance, a doctor with 1 will always heal first, even if his patient is at 1, this allows for the 4 numbers to spread out immensely, you SHOULD NOT need a higher priority than 3 on any colonist at any given time with how innumerous the skills are and the genius way theyre laid out in the overview.
That's basically what we've just talked about for the past 4-8 posts.
Yes, I understand that the priorities still go from left to right when the numbers are the same. What if I want a colonist to research and then clean, haul, craft, mine, grow and repair in that order? More numbers are needed for full customization.
As stated elsewhere, it would also be nice if some of these tasks were broken out further. Perhaps I really want a colonist to cook meals, butcher, and finally make beer in that order.
Playing through so many Alphas now I actually found myself playing around with these as well because of the "feeling" of being less productive but I don't know if you guys have noticed but I believe the game as been adjusted so less is done per day than what you used to be able to do. I've somewhat have gotten used to the productivity of my colony (depending on the number of pawns) and try to not to over power too many tasks in one area unless I have enough pawns that are allocated to certain tasks.
To turn tasks off completely switch to normal view, disable, then back to manual.
Quote from: _alphaBeta_ on August 27, 2015, 11:29:12 PM
Yes, I understand that the priorities still go from left to right when the numbers are the same. What if I want a colonist to research and then clean, haul, craft, mine, grow and repair in that order? More numbers are needed for full customization.
Yeah, but would you honestly need those priorities? It's just a wild example really, provide an actual one to get your point across. 5 numbers? Maybe. 9 numbers? The guy has no idea what he's doing if he needs a priority number per 2 friggin priorities. Priorities aren't meant to be changed and left to automate forever, one of the mechanics is changing it to suit your needs.
Personally, I would love to be able to set a different priority order per person in the default view rather than use the numbers system.
Imagine the default tick box view but being able to drag the priority around per person. So instead of having -
Handling : 4, Mining : 2, Hauling : 3
You would just have the skills in order for each character -
Mining, Hauling, Handling
It's a simple list thats easy to read off and set.
That's actually a decent idea, just probably would get annoying dragging them through for every one. If it dragged n numbers, that would be ultimate, but it might be a little tricky with code.
Quote from: Z0MBIE2 on August 27, 2015, 05:04:15 PM
On a slightly related note, anyone else annoyed how we start on priority 3 for everything? I don't get the use for that, as now it requires 4 clicks to get it to less priority.
Same with me. Those excessive clicks are very annoying. I would prefer for these numbers to be entered without clicking my mouse at all (target mouse and press number on keyboard).
Quote from: GamerGuy on August 27, 2015, 03:12:49 PM
I agree I wish for just 1 or two more priority numbers, 1-5 maybe
I dont want 1 or 2 more, i want more.
The left to right priorities is a bad design.
If the unit can do 10 jobs i want to set priorities from 0 to 10 without repeating numbers (except 0).
If the unit can do 8 jobs i want to set priorities from 0 to 8 without repeating numbers (except 0).
and so on.
Quote from: userfredle on August 27, 2015, 07:54:11 PM
Idk if anyone has said this yet, but you guys need to learn how the priorities function, from left to right, the pawns will consider a skill more important than a similar skill of the same number, for instance, a doctor with 1 will always heal first, even if his patient is at 1, this allows for the 4 numbers to spread out immensely, you SHOULD NOT need a higher priority than 3 on any colonist at any given time with how innumerous the skills are and the genius way theyre laid out in the overview.
So use your numbers to their fullest extent, you DONT need to set a skill a different number just cuz you want them to do it after another one.
I want recearch, clean, hauling, crafting, art, hunting and then cooking. How do u prioritize it?
I'm sorry, but that's just flat out stupid. If you need priorities in that way, you can easily change it halfway through after they do the 4st four, work priorities are not meant to be set and left for the rest of the game, they're changable. If you want it in that order and actually need more numbers for that, you're being stubborn and/or lazy, so don't bring the stupidity of that into the post please.
Quote from: DarknessEyes on August 28, 2015, 01:12:21 PM
Quote from: GamerGuy on August 27, 2015, 03:12:49 PM
I agree I wish for just 1 or two more priority numbers, 1-5 maybe
I dont want 1 or 2 more, i want more.
The left to right priorities is a bad design.
If the unit can do 10 jobs i want to set priorities from 0 to 10 without repeating numbers (except 0).
If the unit can do 8 jobs i want to set priorities from 0 to 8 without repeating numbers (except 0).
and so on.
And this... that's just stupid. Are you honestly once again going to be so stubborn and lazy to expect to switch priorities so specifically you'd need 20 numbers for 20 priorities going in such orders you can't do it as you currently do? 5 numbers? Maybe. 6 numbers? Annoying. Any more is just stupiditiy, being lazy, and being stubborn. And I'm just currently pretty pissed off by that in this thread.
Quote from: DarknessEyes on August 28, 2015, 01:14:06 PMI want recearch, clean, hauling, crafting, art, hunting and then cooking. How do u prioritize it?
Wow, you
REALLY have tried to find a flaw in this system. ;D
I'd really enjoy an ability to schedule priorities by time, so I could (just an example) have an 8 hour 'work period' in the morning, 2 hours of hauling prioritized in the afternoon, then let them go do joy and sleep activities.
Quote from: DarknessEyes on August 28, 2015, 01:14:06 PM
Quote from: userfredle on August 27, 2015, 07:54:11 PM
Idk if anyone has said this yet, but you guys need to learn how the priorities function, from left to right, the pawns will consider a skill more important than a similar skill of the same number, for instance, a doctor with 1 will always heal first, even if his patient is at 1, this allows for the 4 numbers to spread out immensely, you SHOULD NOT need a higher priority than 3 on any colonist at any given time with how innumerous the skills are and the genius way theyre laid out in the overview.
So use your numbers to their fullest extent, you DONT need to set a skill a different number just cuz you want them to do it after another one.
I want recearch, clean, hauling, crafting, art, hunting and then cooking. How do u prioritize it?
This is a management game, it's not meant to be fully autonomous.
For that, I'd recommend priority 1 on research and lower priorities on all others; when it finished, lower the priority on research and raise it on cleaning - so on and so forth.
This IS a micromanaging game: if your colonists get attacked, you manually have to set them to fight back; if you want those crops harvested NOW, you have to manually select someone to do so; if your doctor is needed but want to sleep, you have to override him.
You're asking for a major change in an already functional system; to have a number for everything would cause the ascending/descending portion to become obsolete. Your idea isn't stupid, I understand that it would work. However, using developmental time to change it would put other content/features on hold for longer for a system that's fully functional as is.
We've only got Tynan for as long as he's willing to put up with us (he's already having to take a sabbatical), and I don't want that time wasted on streamlining something that already works.
There is always the question of if you consider the priories menu and the limitation it has be to an aspect to the difficulty of the game. Not taking a side either way, but I could see how arranging the priories in a specific way to achieve your goal within some kind of boundaries could be considered a element to the game. If the priorities menu is meant to be purely functional, I think it could be done in a better way, or at least, renovated in a large way (similar to the sell menu). If the menu is meant to be a 'mini game' within the game, I think it could be aesthetically improved - I'm not really sure how, but thats not really my gig :P
**EDIT**
I will admit that the clean/haul first choice generally chews up a choice that I wish I had back. I find that when I'm trying to fine turn the hauler to cleaner ratio, espesically considering that its everyones second/third job, it becomes a bit of a pain to have to reshuffle all the priories because cleaning is now a 2 instead of a 3 and/or hauling is now a 3 instead of a 2.
Quote from: DarknessEyes on August 28, 2015, 01:14:06 PM
Quote from: userfredle on August 27, 2015, 07:54:11 PM
Idk if anyone has said this yet, but you guys need to learn how the priorities function, from left to right, the pawns will consider a skill more important than a similar skill of the same number, for instance, a doctor with 1 will always heal first, even if his patient is at 1, this allows for the 4 numbers to spread out immensely, you SHOULD NOT need a higher priority than 3 on any colonist at any given time with how innumerous the skills are and the genius way theyre laid out in the overview.
So use your numbers to their fullest extent, you DONT need to set a skill a different number just cuz you want them to do it after another one.
I want recearch, clean, hauling, crafting, art, hunting and then cooking. How do u prioritize it?
First off no colonist would ever do all those jobs in 1 day, and the job que is reset every time they go to sleep... so no need to have that many jobs on one colonist.
Again, not understanding how the job priorities work.
I'm pretty sure darknesseyes is just a troll...
Quote from: Z0MBIE2 on August 28, 2015, 12:14:00 AM
Yeah, but would you honestly need those priorities? It's just a wild example really, provide an actual one to get your point across. 5 numbers? Maybe. 9 numbers? The guy has no idea what he's doing if he needs a priority number per 2 friggin priorities. Priorities aren't meant to be changed and left to automate forever, one of the mechanics is changing it to suit your needs.
Quote from: TLHeart on August 28, 2015, 04:36:50 PM
First off no colonist would ever do all those jobs in 1 day, and the job que is reset every time they go to sleep... so no need to have that many jobs on one colonist.
The common thread I see in the opposition to adding more priority numbers is two points:
- Players can change priorities accordingly and quite often once certain jobs have been done.
- Considering the issue from the perspective of a single colonist executing their own personal job queue without considering the other colonists.
In my example, perhaps I'd like my unskilled colonists to first engage in low skill work and only then help with some of the skilled work. If a massive construction project (say a large wall) is ongoing over the course of days, I'd like my unskilled labor force (which could be multiple colonists) hauling and cleaning. For a small team of such colonists, it is absolutely plausible for them to complete all the hauling and cleaning jobs available (point 2). From there, I'd like them to assist with the construction project. All the while, the high skilled construction colonists have been taking priority on those jobs, but there's still considerable work to be done that day. On point 1 above, it would seem you're suggesting that I micromanage the situation and keep turning off construction on the low skilled colonists until the cleaning and hauling is done and then switching it on. I like micromanagement in games, but not this kind of tedious micromanagement. Wouldn't it be easier to set my preferences up front and be done?
This was a single example with construction, but numbers get chewed up quickly when the player goes against the global priorities, hence the need for more. This can be extended and interwoven with other job types which can sometimes have a lot of labor such as growing. Perhaps I want all my colonists engaged in already customized prioritization, but then I want everyone to assist with growing and then construction as their last last priority (if they don't have it higher) before they go idle. With only four numbers, this may not be possible. The only real response to this has been that players shouldn't be trying to do that or just assign more jobs when colonists go idle. That's your opinion, but I can't call the system completely versatile and customizable in its current form. Colonists should never go idle in a well balanced job prioritization IMHO. The frustrating part of the priorities screen is that it's almost there.
Players engage games like this very differently, and it would do us all well to respect that. If you're opposed to this idea, why is that? Does more numbers threaten your play style? Seems to be that you just wouldn't use them. Only other issue I see is this taking away from Tynan's valuable development time, but I find it hard to believe that adding in additional numbers would be a big deal with an existing logical and coherent algorithm.
no more numbers would not change my play style, as they are not needed, when you understand how the colonist prioritize work. And more numbers will not make your colonist anymore efficient in getting jobs done.
Again, colonist will very rarely finish two job priorities in a day, and those priorities reset every time they go to sleep. And as soon as a higher priority job appears, they will leave the lower priority job, to do the higher priority job.
Accured to me just now while reading the thread that the fact that there is even a discussion about whether people know how to use priorities to their full extent pretty much says it all doesn't it... Not trying to be a smart-ass here either.
Although the current system does work and has all you need to do nearly everything, seems like it's a bit too worried about being clever about it. While creating a unique method to deal with priorities, he's gotten a little too "cheeky" with it imo. Scratch it all and give me 1-10 or 20 and be done with it. Set it once for each colonist and never look at it again.
Granted you could set the entire thing to 1 across the board and let the AI do it's thing but fiddling with priorities is a big part of the management side of the game and it's a big part of the fun for me at least. I for one could do completely without the AI's involvement as far as priorities are concerned, but then again I'm kinda nutso like that when it comes to management games :)
In all my time playing this I have never needed more numbers, but I suppose one or two more wouldn't hurt. Maybe start with upping the count to 5? Itty bitty change, see how it goes over kind of thing.
We're debating a small feature tweak that brings no negative impacts, just some enhanced features for those that would partake. Usually this community is not combative enough shoot down ideas and dictate how the game should be played, so I'm a bit surprised to be honest.
If a player wants the priorities to be essentially backwards from the global set, it cannot be done without considerable micromanagement. That is a fact of the mechanics of the current system. The only counter argument has questioned why a player would want this situation and I feel enough use cases have been offered. They're just not use cases that come up in everyone's game.
Quote from: TLHeart on August 28, 2015, 06:38:17 PM
no more numbers would not change my play style, as they are not needed, when you understand how the colonist prioritize work. And more numbers will not make your colonist anymore efficient in getting jobs done.
Respectfully, what am I not understanding? Can you please provide a method to have a colonist, or more importantly, a group of colonists execute jobs starting from the right to the left. It doesn't have to be every job, but I suspect you'll hit an issue around the fourth job. There's 20 possible jobs in the current list. That's not very flexible.
Quote from: TLHeart on August 28, 2015, 06:38:17 PM
Again, colonist will very rarely finish two job priorities in a day, and those priorities reset every time they go to sleep. And as soon as a higher priority job appears, they will leave the lower priority job, to do the higher priority job.
I respectfully disagree. If my colony was routinely filthy, especially medical areas etc., I'd assign a team of low skilled colonists to clean first everyday at the start of the work shift. They will finish the job, and at that point what I really want is for them to now move on to some of the jobs to the left, some of which I may want in an order against the global priority. Without my direct intervention everyday or perhaps multiple times per day, the amount of jobs I can specify in the order I want is the issue. Why should this even be an issue if the solution is simple?
The reason I'm shooting it down is because I only ever need the 4, and 5 is okayish but any more becomes a nuisance for changing priorities.
Also: You do bloody realize having any more then 6 numbers is stupid, and it would be better to just make the options slidable, to slide them left-to-right in the priorities. Therefore solving all ya bloody problems if you want to make them that specific.
Quote from: _alphaBeta_ on August 28, 2015, 08:20:39 PM
We're debating a small feature tweak that brings no negative impacts, just some enhanced features for those that would partake. Usually this community is not combative enough shoot down ideas and dictate how the game should be played, so I'm a bit surprised to be honest.
This is incorrect. By adding a 20-point scale (to allow a perfect reverse priority) it makes it that much more cumbersome for everyone else to navigate through the priority list. A big problem would reseting priorities - what if I want to move a 10 (or multiple 10s) to 1? I'm not outright opposed to lengthening the priority scale, but if it is done we need at least some tools to make navigating through them easier.
A few thoughts:
A button to reset all enabled priorities to a chosen level - for example, I have all priorities jumbled now but want to keep the same enabled with different priorities. Starting over already is a pain, it'd be an nightmare with 20 levels. If we could click a single button and reset them all to 1/10/20 that would make the re-prioritizing process much easier.
Fast navigation - unnecessary currently, but with 20 levels I wouldn't want to click 10 times to get anywhere - lets make it so that Shift-RMB moves you directly to 1, Shift-LMB directly to 20, and Shift-MMB direct to 10. Combined with the reset button it would significantly ease the navigation through those priorities.
An alternative (much more intensive) fix is that each colonist has a list of priorities which you can drag and drop, top to bottom, which then are represented in the work table summary. This would actually be more intuitive and (I think) satisfy everyone's needs more readily than the system I describe above, but probably takes much more dev time.
Quote from: _alphaBeta_ on August 28, 2015, 08:20:39 PM
We're debating a small feature tweak that brings no negative impacts, just some enhanced features for those that would partake. Usually this community is not combative enough shoot down ideas and dictate how the game should be played, so I'm a bit surprised to be honest.
If a player wants the priorities to be essentially backwards from the global set, it cannot be done without considerable micromanagement. That is a fact of the mechanics of the current system. The only counter argument has questioned why a player would want this situation and I feel enough use cases have been offered. They're just not use cases that come up in everyone's game.
Quote from: TLHeart on August 28, 2015, 06:38:17 PM
no more numbers would not change my play style, as they are not needed, when you understand how the colonist prioritize work. And more numbers will not make your colonist anymore efficient in getting jobs done.
Respectfully, what am I not understanding? Can you please provide a method to have a colonist, or more importantly, a group of colonists execute jobs starting from the right to the left. It doesn't have to be every job, but I suspect you'll hit an issue around the fourth job. There's 20 possible jobs in the current list. That's not very flexible.
Quote from: TLHeart on August 28, 2015, 06:38:17 PM
Again, colonist will very rarely finish two job priorities in a day, and those priorities reset every time they go to sleep. And as soon as a higher priority job appears, they will leave the lower priority job, to do the higher priority job.
I respectfully disagree. If my colony was routinely filthy, especially medical areas etc., I'd assign a team of low skilled colonists to clean first everyday at the start of the work shift. They will finish the job, and at that point what I really want is for them to now move on to some of the jobs to the left, some of which I may want in an order against the global priority. Without my direct intervention everyday or perhaps multiple times per day, the amount of jobs I can specify in the order I want is the issue. Why should this even be an issue if the solution is simple?
What your not understanding is NO colonist will ever do more than 4 different job categories in a day. And more numbers will not change the idle colonist when there is no work to be done.
Slidable priorities and/or a couple extra selections. Seems reasonable to me too.... so what are we debating again? Or are we just arguing now just for the sake of arguing and have nothing better to do? I know I don't, well at least for a couple hours :P
Or is this the new RW forum thing. Nightly trolling bouts!!! Take your bets!! ;D
I can't say I'm against additional priority numbers as long as it doesn't become cumbersome to use for those of us that have no use for them. I'd find them useless. Hauling and cleaning are best where they are IMO. They are short notice quick task events and placing them higher than other tasks results in colonists constantly interrupting tasks to mop up a single blood spill or dropped item on the other side of the map. Honestly I wish there were a few changes to the way crops are handled so they don't do that when growing. If I have cleaning or hauling issues I reduce the other workload on colonists who can do so.
My typical colonist priority goes something like this:
? Emergency Jobs: fire/medical and the like I expect them to drop what they are doing to take care of, whichever works best for that colonist.
1-2 Occasional Jobs: tasks that are important but not constant, such as warden, handling
0-2 On Demand Jobs: tasks that are only active when I set them, such as construction,hunting,mining
0-1 Common Job: what they fill most of their time with, such as cooking, general crafting.
2 Maintenance Jobs: Haul and clean usually
Most colonists only have 1 to 3 jobs checked aside from emergency/maintenance. Most of the time one number takes care of this no issue. Once my colony gets fairly large I'll tune it with a little more detail, some might have cleaning/hauling instead of hauling/cleaning, or a couple with repair bumped ahead of construction to keep things maintained.
It would also be nice if items get priority for hauling if they decay or spoil in their current location. Get that harvested crop in the freezer and lumber into stores before worrying about a rock chunk or stack of steel.
Funny, now that you mention it..... it does seem like they do ALOT more unnecessary switching of tasks than they used to back in alpha 8-9. Cutt all these trees, then run 100 blocks just to strip clothing off a corps, then run all the way back to clean one pile of dirt, etc.....
Yeah, not real sure when they got so ADD about tasks..... but it's pretty nutso just how much time they waste in transit now.
my input on this is yes we could use more granularity, i always play using prepare carefully, art, farmer, chef and handy are all named for their skill set, farmer for the most part sows potatoes and crops because of her green thumb trait, chef has a standing work order to main 75 of each quality food as well as a "forever" butcher bill to process human and animal meat.
i try to limit what they do very specifically and to be honest it works, with it setup as pictured here the only thing they don't really do much of is hauling.
(http://i.imgur.com/7pkYGFc.jpg)
The issue with 'total granularity' is that if the scale went from 1-20 then I'd have to click like 100 more times to switch a moderate colony's priorities around, and that's just way too much.
Honestly by the time I worry about the priority of half the things on the list I have colonists literally dedicated to specific tasks, having more than 4 numbers would be redundant to me.
Being able to drag the columns around also seems superfluous to me, but atleast it wouldn't actively lessen my enjoyment of the game while also presumably fixing all the issues brought up so far.
Quote from: Weyrling on August 29, 2015, 05:27:40 AM
The issue with 'total granularity' is that if the scale went from 1-20 then I'd have to click like 100 more times to switch a moderate colony's priorities around, and that's just way too much.
Honestly by the time I worry about the priority of half the things on the list I have colonists literally dedicated to specific tasks, having more than 4 numbers would be redundant to me.
Being able to drag the columns around also seems superfluous to me, but atleast it wouldn't actively lessen my enjoyment of the game while also presumably fixing all the issues brought up so far.
that's what i meant to illustrate though, to some degree everyone has a single job, or job category and i can't get them to haul enough without adjustment.
Quote from: Z0MBIE2 on August 28, 2015, 08:46:02 PM
The reason I'm shooting it down is because I only ever need the 4, and 5 is okayish but any more becomes a nuisance for changing priorities.
Also: You do bloody realize having any more then 6 numbers is stupid, and it would be better to just make the options slidable, to slide them left-to-right in the priorities. Therefore solving all ya bloody problems if you want to make them that specific.
I respect that you would only need the 4, but I'm asking players to respect that other play styles could use some more. I fully agree with the slides and its an idea I've had since I first starting playing that I don't think I've articulated anywhere. I would say that the implementation time of that system will certainly be more intensive as mentioned by others as well. Perhaps it would be best to start adding some additional numbers and see how it goes before proceeding too far.
Quote from: akiceabear on August 28, 2015, 09:02:27 PM
Quote from: _alphaBeta_ on August 28, 2015, 08:20:39 PM
We're debating a small feature tweak that brings no negative impacts, just some enhanced features for those that would partake. Usually this community is not combative enough shoot down ideas and dictate how the game should be played, so I'm a bit surprised to be honest.
This is incorrect. By adding a 20-point scale (to allow a perfect reverse priority) it makes it that much more cumbersome for everyone else to navigate through the priority list. A big problem would reseting priorities - what if I want to move a 10 (or multiple 10s) to 1? I'm not outright opposed to lengthening the priority scale, but if it is done we need at least some tools to make navigating through them easier.
A few thoughts:
<snip>
I wasn't thinking to have 20 numbers even though my previous post implies it. Still, I absolutely agree that adding more numbers should probably bring some of the quick tools you're mentioning to make adjustments easier. I think some of these would be a good idea in the current system even if additional numbers were not added. I'd add the ability to drag the numbers in place to increment or decrement much like the trade window to your proposed solutions. A hotkey to disable the job completely would also be a good idea.
Quote from: TLHeart on August 28, 2015, 11:31:14 PM
What your not understanding is NO colonist will ever do more than 4 different job categories in a day. And more numbers will not change the idle colonist when there is no work to be done.
We must have very different ways of playing this game, which I will respect. In my case, I have this happen constantly by teams of colonists having the same priority scale. I also don't see how specifying a longer to-do list wouldn't help avoid colonists going idle.
Quote from: FMJ Penguin on August 29, 2015, 12:34:12 AM
Slidable priorities and/or a couple extra selections. Seems reasonable to me too.... so what are we debating again? Or are we just arguing now just for the sake of arguing and have nothing better to do? I know I don't, well at least for a couple hours :P
Or is this the new RW forum thing. Nightly trolling bouts!!! Take your bets!! ;D
I think this thread actually went constructive again, which is nice to see. At its core, we're debating whether the current system could use some changes to accommodate additional play styles. In summary, adding more numbers to the current manual priorities screen would help some out, and also adding some quick controls to better manage those numbers would seem to cover all aspects.
Quote from: Drahkon on August 29, 2015, 12:47:45 AM
I can't say I'm against additional priority numbers as long as it doesn't become cumbersome to use for those of us that have no use for them. I'd find them useless. Hauling and cleaning are best where they are IMO. They are short notice quick task events and placing them higher than other tasks results in colonists constantly interrupting tasks to mop up a single blood spill or dropped item on the other side of the map. Honestly I wish there were a few changes to the way crops are handled so they don't do that when growing. If I have cleaning or hauling issues I reduce the other workload on colonists who can do so.
My colonies usually have a huge hauling backlog, and for items that degrade outside, this is a problem. The worst example I usually see is a whole harvest sitting outside. High density jobs like growing that generate a haul-able material per job need to have their hauling at a less priority or they'll potentially do a single harvest and the run it to the stockpile. This is just a casualty of the current system since there's no additional intelligence there to have a grower, for example, harvest enough times to make a full stack, and then haul it. In the meantime, this is where teams of colonists come in handy and why some priorities need to be in reverse. A dedicated hauler or team of haulers following the growers seems the best alternative within the current mechanics. As I said above, highly prioritizing jobs on the right side of the list can be difficult to automate the remainder of the tasks.
Quote from: Drahkon on August 29, 2015, 12:47:45 AM
Most colonists only have 1 to 3 jobs checked aside from emergency/maintenance. Most of the time one number takes care of this no issue. Once my colony gets fairly large I'll tune it with a little more detail, some might have cleaning/hauling instead of hauling/cleaning, or a couple with repair bumped ahead of construction to keep things maintained.
Quote from: Weyrling on August 29, 2015, 05:27:40 AM
Honestly by the time I worry about the priority of half the things on the list I have colonists literally dedicated to specific tasks, having more than 4 numbers would be redundant to me.
This is a play style difference. I'd prefer to have additional lower priority tasks already selected so I don't have to keep finding idle colonists a job. I realize at times that the job queues get so big that even dedicated colonists will pretty much never go idle. But there are times when this happens, especially if colonists are sheltering inside, for example, via restricted zones and the usual job queue becomes very reduced.
I'd say there are those who draw some fun from running a highly efficient self-sufficient colony. Some players like to spend a good amount of time tweaking the priorities and then sitting back and seeing the colonists run the colony without so much direct intervention. I also understand players who are constantly in the priorities screen making adjustments all the time, and worry less about a "perfect setup." Can we strike a balance?
Quote from: Z0MBIE2 on August 28, 2015, 02:17:39 PM
And this... that's just stupid. Are you honestly once again going to be so stubborn and lazy to expect to switch priorities so specifically you'd need 20 numbers for 20 priorities going in such orders you can't do it as you currently do? 5 numbers? Maybe. 6 numbers? Annoying. Any more is just stupiditiy, being lazy, and being stubborn. And I'm just currently pretty pissed off by that in this thread.
I want recearch, clean, hauling, crafting, art, hunting and then cooking. How do u prioritize it with few numbers?
Quote from: DarknessEyes on August 29, 2015, 12:14:59 PM
Quote from: Z0MBIE2 on August 28, 2015, 02:17:39 PM
And this... that's just stupid. Are you honestly once again going to be so stubborn and lazy to expect to switch priorities so specifically you'd need 20 numbers for 20 priorities going in such orders you can't do it as you currently do? 5 numbers? Maybe. 6 numbers? Annoying. Any more is just stupiditiy, being lazy, and being stubborn. And I'm just currently pretty pissed off by that in this thread.
I want recearch, clean, hauling, crafting, art, hunting and then cooking. How do u prioritize it with few numbers?
And the pawn assigned to research, will never do any other jobs. again not understanding how the pawns use the work priorities.
Quote from: _alphaBeta_ on August 29, 2015, 08:41:21 AM
snip
Extremely reasonable requests - so long as convenience tools are included to make sure those with simpler needs aren't burdened, happy to see this function expanded as requested.
Quote from: Z0MBIE2 on August 28, 2015, 05:42:07 PM
I'm pretty sure darknesseyes is just a troll...
Im not trolling at all.
The current system doesn't work in my setup...
IMO tthey should keep the current system but add an advanced option that can be toggled on/off for each colonist.
Something like the "workbenches" where you can move priorities up and down using the arrows and you can set to do X job forever (if available) or do the X job Y times (But in colonist ui make it per day). That way we could even set colonist do haul X items per day before doing anything else...
Your setup is wrong then as you're not using the system properly. The work system is not made to allow several days of work on automatic, with you doing nothing. You have to set it up properly. Is your one pawn really needing a bit less then half the work options in that order? I honestly doubt you use that set up.
Quote from: Z0MBIE2 on August 29, 2015, 12:46:23 PM
Your setup is wrong then as you're not using the system properly. The work system is not made to allow several days of work on automatic, with you doing nothing. You have to set it up properly. Is your one pawn really needing a bit less then half the work options in that order? I honestly doubt you use that set up.
1) Firefighting
2) Doctoring
3) Patient
4) Repairing
5) Main skill (Depends on colonist skills)
6) Hauling
7) Hunting
8) Plant cutting
9) Alt skill #1 (Depends on colonist skills)
10) Alt skill #2 (Depends on colonist skills)
11) Cleaning
Lets make an example with Researching as "Main skill", Growing as "Alt skill #1" and Cooking as "Alt skill #2".
1) Firefighting: 1
2) Doctoring: 1
3) Patient: 1
4) Repairing: 1
5)
Researching: 1
6) Hauling: 2
7) Hunting: 3
8) Plant cutting: 3
9)
Growing: 4
10)
Cooking: 5
11) Cleaning: 5
Quote from: DarknessEyes on August 29, 2015, 05:08:55 PM
Quote from: Z0MBIE2 on August 29, 2015, 12:46:23 PM
Your setup is wrong then as you're not using the system properly. The work system is not made to allow several days of work on automatic, with you doing nothing. You have to set it up properly. Is your one pawn really needing a bit less then half the work options in that order? I honestly doubt you use that set up.
1) Firefighting
2) Doctoring
3) Patient
4) Repairing
5) Main skill (Depends on colonist skills)
6) Hauling
7) Hunting
8) Plant cutting
9) Alt skill #1 (Depends on colonist skills)
10) Alt skill #2 (Depends on colonist skills)
11) Cleaning
Lets make an example with Researching as "Main skill", Growing as "Alt skill #1" and Cooking as "Alt skill #2".
1) Firefighting: 1
2) Doctoring: 1
3) Patient: 1
4) Repairing: 1
5) Researching: 1
6) Hauling: 2
7) Hunting: 3
8) Plant cutting: 3
9) Growing: 4
10) Cooking: 5
11) Cleaning: 5
and once again no pawn will ever get past job #2 in your list in one day.
Quote from: Z0MBIE2 on August 29, 2015, 12:46:23 PM
The work system is not made to allow several days of work on automatic, with you doing nothing.
This is probably the nexus of the debate summed up in a sentence. I believe this should be possible, but it can't be done effectively with the current system.
I can understand that some players have no interest in doing this and would prefer to make frequent changes based on what their colonists are currently doing. I'm having trouble understanding why some are so opposed to allowing the other play style. This is especially considering that a few extra numbers and controls would make this possible.
Quote from: TLHeart on August 29, 2015, 05:32:21 PM
and once again no pawn will ever get past job #2 in your list in one day.
I hate to keep going back and forth on this, but respectfully you are not considering multiple colonists having similar priority settings. By the late game I usually have quite a few colonists who are good with guns and knives, but not much of anything else. Hauling is a perfect low-skill job for them to do. A team of haulers will keep up and have times of no hauling jobs being active. In the example provided by DarknessEyes, it's clear that pawns sharing this prioritization should concentrate on hauling. Yes, I'm aware that researching is #1, and a pawn or two from the group may actually be researching assuming that a research project has been assigned. From there they haul, and if there's no hauling jobs available DarknessEyes would like them to hunt and go down the rest of the list. Yes, as soon as a hauling job comes up, someone will drop what they're doing and run for it. Understandable since that's how the current system works. Unless multiple haul jobs come up at once, a group of colonists sharing this prioritization will not all haul - they'll keep doing their secondary or tertiary tasks etc., They'll keep busy without my intervention and it's better than being idle.
The alternative to having this functionality would be to have all these colonists go idle, and then assign them some more things to do. This is the unpleasant kind of micromanagement to me, but I respect that some like to play this way.
Also consider scenarios like I mention earlier where you shelter colonists inside. This usually leads to massive idling since the amount of jobs available is reduced. I usually have to turn on a whole bunch of jobs with higher global priority (<<<< & >>>>) so they keep busy inside. Once the crisis is over, I have to go back and turn it all off.
my work priorities stay static set like that for easily years at a time if not the entire game at once, overall the priorities system works very well for me personally, the main downside is hauling as mentioned and cleaning can be troublesome too at times, but really the only effect i see for the most part is less ROI on crops.
[edit] and i've yet to try to escape the rimworld either, for any wondering, my colony backstory is that conglomo sent out some fresh meat to see how they would do at running a planet-scale branch of the company, in short, leaving the planet is just another game over, indefinite living and profit, that's my goal. :) [/edit]
Those wanting more manual number for priorities seem to want to set the numbers just once and never touch them again. IE be on auto pilot, with no input from the player, except for the initial setup.
I Change the pawns priorities as the needs of the colony change. Need to get a harvest in quickly, everyone hauls for a day or two. Need a large construction project done, all those with construction skills are #1 until the project is done.... It is called management of needs.
There are a few pawns that the priorities rarely change on, but for me, as the needs of the colony change, due to growth, outside problems like toxic fallout, I change the priorities to fit what is happening at the time. Job 1 and job 2 are all I am ever concerned about, as that keeps everyone busy for the day.
And that has worked easily even when I had 60 colonists.
Quote from: TLHeart on August 29, 2015, 09:08:20 PM
Those wanting more manual number for priorities seem to want to set the numbers just once and never touch them again. IE be on auto pilot, with no input from the player, except for the initial setup.
I Change the pawns priorities as the needs of the colony change. Need to get a harvest in quickly, everyone hauls for a day or two. Need a large construction project done, all those with construction skills are #1 until the project is done.... It is called management of needs.
There are a few pawns that the priorities rarely change on, but for me, as the needs of the colony change, due to growth, outside problems like toxic fallout, I change the priorities to fit what is happening at the time. Job 1 and job 2 are all I am ever concerned about, as that keeps everyone busy for the day.
And that has worked easily even when I had 60 colonists.
it happens yeah, i had set more of them for specific jobs because of the colony's need overall, the point though, was i wish i didn't have to stop what i'm doing keeping an eye to their activities and have to fumble around with micromanaging them, thinking all the time "man, i wish they would fix this next alpha, it's really close to perfect already".
Quote from: Weyrling on August 29, 2015, 05:27:40 AM
The issue with 'total granularity' is that if the scale went from 1-20 then I'd have to click like 100 more times to switch a moderate colony's priorities around, and that's just way too much.
Honestly by the time I worry about the priority of half the things on the list I have colonists literally dedicated to specific tasks, having more than 4 numbers would be redundant to me.
Being able to drag the columns around also seems superfluous to me, but atleast it wouldn't actively lessen my enjoyment of the game while also presumably fixing all the issues brought up so far.
This is pretty much spot on for me as well. I would not want to see more numbers added, it would make manual priorities cumbersome. If entire columns were able to be moved; I doubt i would ever use that but it wouldn't negatively affect my game play.
And as far as being able to move things around, I'd far rather be able to move colonists rows around which ultimately changes nothing except more of an ability to sort ppl.
Rows is actually what I meant when I said that. I didn't expect people to have the same priorities for everyone through moving columns, although combined with the 1-4 it would just add an option. Although for moving the row, the only problem is how would you know what the activity was after moving it if the above title wasn't moved. Owell.
Quote from: Menuhin on August 30, 2015, 12:35:18 AM
Quote from: Weyrling on August 29, 2015, 05:27:40 AM
The issue with 'total granularity' is that if the scale went from 1-20 then I'd have to click like 100 more times to switch a moderate colony's priorities around, and that's just way too much.
Honestly by the time I worry about the priority of half the things on the list I have colonists literally dedicated to specific tasks, having more than 4 numbers would be redundant to me.
Being able to drag the columns around also seems superfluous to me, but atleast it wouldn't actively lessen my enjoyment of the game while also presumably fixing all the issues brought up so far.
This is pretty much spot on for me as well. I would not want to see more numbers added, it would make manual priorities cumbersome. If entire columns were able to be moved; I doubt i would ever use that but it wouldn't negatively affect my game play.
And as far as being able to move things around, I'd far rather be able to move colonists rows around which ultimately changes nothing except more of an ability to sort ppl.
first off, it's hard to really take seriously the "i'd have to click once more if you get the priorities bug fixed" stance seriously, sorry, but yeah, come on, let's stop being superflous and needlessly exaggerating a non-issue.
secondly, the more i think about it, the more the problem is with hauling itself and how that functions mechanically in rimworld due to a few things which cause it to take a mind boggling amount more effort than reality:
1. i may only be able to carry so many limes as a general statement, but at the same time, i can use a wheelbarrow, bag or backpack of some sort to temporarily carry more.
2. jobs which create resources will over ride the need to haul as noted on previous pages in this page of discussions, what this means is that mining, growing, chopping trees and probably even hunting in large enough designations creates more work than your work force can realistically compensate for.
God man, what I wouldn't give for a wheelbarrow like df used them. Just as a transport device and leave it in the stockpiles when not in use. Especially on those tree-heavy maps. I'm also curious how the actual "storage spot" is chosen in a stockpile too. Seems like it isn't the closest spot or the furthest but some random spot with no distance taken into account.
As far as the worry about too many mouse clicks to get what you want.... don't forget you can left and right click to raise and lower the numbers so it's pretty much a complete non-issue anyways. You could literally have 1k choices and it wouldn't mean you actually did any more clicky-clicky. If that makes any sense.
Quote from: TLHeart on August 29, 2015, 05:32:21 PM
Quote from: DarknessEyes on August 29, 2015, 05:08:55 PM
Quote from: Z0MBIE2 on August 29, 2015, 12:46:23 PM
Your setup is wrong then as you're not using the system properly. The work system is not made to allow several days of work on automatic, with you doing nothing. You have to set it up properly. Is your one pawn really needing a bit less then half the work options in that order? I honestly doubt you use that set up.
Lets make an example with Researching as "Main skill", Growing as "Alt skill #1" and Cooking as "Alt skill #2".
1) Firefighting: 1
2) Doctoring: 1
3) Patient: 1
4) Repairing: 1
5) Researching: 1
6) Hauling: 2
7) Hunting: 3
8) Plant cutting: 3
9) Growing: 4
10) Cooking: 5
11) Cleaning: 5
and once again no pawn will ever get past job #2 in your list in one day.
Researching is always almost in progress, so that job might have been a bad example.
But you can only do growing from X to Y months (depends on map), even if its all year i dont have people growing 24/7.
I have cooking limited to "until you have X meals"
Hunting and plant cutting i only use if i need wood or run low on food.
Hauling since the items outside take damage over time i try to keep everything inside.
Then, when the man hunters come i have to close everyone inside my base, which reduces amount of available jobs...
How about instead of the numbers system we just put... Like little boxes (that represented different jobs) after the colonists name? So no titled columns or anything, just road with the colonist name and then you 'drag into the row' or 'right click>select from list' the names of the jobs in the order you want it done.
It would be no wider the it takes to display each job once (as it is now), wouldn't require more clicks (less actually), and you could make every possible combination.
Quote from: Mikhail Reign on September 01, 2015, 12:18:18 AM
How about instead of the numbers system we just put... Like little boxes (that represented different jobs) after the colonists name? So no titled columns or anything, just road with the colonist name and then you 'drag into the row' or 'right click>select from list' the names of the jobs in the order you want it done.
It would be no wider the it takes to display each job once (as it is now), wouldn't require more clicks (less actually), and you could make every possible combination.
not a bad idea honestly, might be easier to visualize your colonist's workflow that way at least, which hopefully would help a bit.
Quote from: Mikhail Reign on September 01, 2015, 12:18:18 AM
How about instead of the numbers system we just put... Like little boxes (that represented different jobs) after the colonists name? So no titled columns or anything, just road with the colonist name and then you 'drag into the row' or 'right click>select from list' the names of the jobs in the order you want it done.
It would be no wider the it takes to display each job once (as it is now), wouldn't require more clicks (less actually), and you could make every possible combination.
+1
I think I would like it if I could set some sort of priority override for things that need to be done *now*.
If I really needed lots of something hauling away I could select them all, click on "Haul" and then everybody would do that first before reverting to the job priority system.
It would probably be a little inefficient for crafting, due to people who are a bit rubbish helping out, but it would be great for clearing out a field of potatoes or mining some metal.
Nuu the thread was dead and it was okay that way.
Also, there's a mod for that. Not sure if he's published it yet, I'll check.
Quote from: Z0MBIE2 on September 12, 2015, 09:39:05 PM
Also, there's a mod for that. Not sure if he's published it yet, I'll check.
Yes, please see that this gets published! Priority haul was a great mod back around A8.