Ive installed multiple mods, and have triple checked to see if they are in fact A16 (they are) but im seeing a problem in the tech tree, where im not able to scroll up or donw in the tech tree, so things like machining and other techs are almost completely hidden by the edge of the screen. Im probably overlooking something really simple, but if someone can help i would be eternally grateful.
Amos
Theres no vertical scroll on the research screen. Tynans system should allow for all research to fit in the current system. If its not then thats a bug and should be raised.
@Skallywag, there is def an issue, not sure if a bug or a feature. If a person has enough Mods and those mods dont use the X,Y co-ords or too many use the same X-Y co-ords then eventually some items in the research tree will push off the bottom of the research screen.
We know. I and others raised this in testing. Im not gonna go into anymore detail tham that but suffice to say you wont see a mod out of me until this thing is fixed. I dont have the time to work out what everyone else is doing with their research defs.
Skullywag, I don't understand the fury here. I said before that we spent 3 days trying to make a research tree auto-layout. It didn't work. We tried what you wanted and it didn't work. It was obvious it would take much more effort to get it to work satisfactorily.
So the choice was between
1. Trying more to do something here and miss Christmas, or
2. Getting the core game right and releasing before Christmas, knowing that the system was going to be in a non-perfect state for one alpha.
I chose option 2. Because:
A. It's an alpha, it's going to change, it's not gonna last forever. Perfection wasn't the goal, nor is it a reasonable standard to judge it by.
B. You guys are modders. If you want a piece of functionality on the research screen, you can add it. If you want more scrollbars, you can add them. If you want a new research screen or new layout algorithm, you can make it. You have everything you need. You're not blocked or prevented from anything.
C. It's for information gathering. There are lots of potential solutions to the research overload problem. You're saying here it should be vertically scrollable. But what about tabs? What about an auto-layout engine? Or something else entirely? Which one do we choose? I could just guess. But, my philosophy is to gather evidence before making design decisions. That means seeing what the problems are before you design a solution to them, and seeing how people interact with the problem. It's not intended as a perfect final solution. It's an alpha, it's supposed to be broken, but watching the ways it is broken will inform my decision of how to handle this for future builds.
D. General design approach: If I demanded perfection of every RimWorld system before being willing to release it, none of you would be playing RimWorld.
E. I wanted to get Alpha 16 out for Christmas and to do that you have to focus on essentials.
I'm aware that you might not agree with my choice here but it's not reasonable to act like this is some sort of offensive, immoral act I've undertaken by releasing this research screen. It's a straightforward application of all the same design principles that attracted all of you to RimWorld in the first place.
Thanks for the Info, and personally i prefer the A16 release as is rather than not..
As for my own mod which has alot of research options, I just offset my research to start on x-20 onward which made it a little more tidy. Mods with little or not research should be fine auto placing within the first 20 X columns.
For Y though the limit is basically 5 because there is not scroll down feature, though in reality just having a scroll down feature to say 50-Y would likely allow auto-placement to be fine for people running quote a few mods. Unfortunately adding a scroll down to the window is beyond my expertise as i assume it need assemblies?
Vertical scrollbar is nice if the mods have totally separate research trees from the base game. So are tabs.
But, in real life, mods often base their research from the vanilla research tree, so it can't all be isolated easily. What do we do if 10 different modders all create new research projects based on Electricity? Simply adding a vertical scroll bar or tabs doesn't help with this - the only real solution seems to be some sort of auto-layout. Or, tabs with invisible dependencies between them (which I don't like a ton).
Theres no fury, that was fact, I dont see setting manual coords as something i want to spend my time maintaining (yes i do think it will cause me maintenance) and i know other forum members are working on mods to address this, so ill wait for that. Apologies if it came across like i was angry, im not. Its a game, ive plenty of things to do in the meantime.
However the vertical scrollbar part im confused by, ive seen the largest research tree in HCSKs rendered with no height restriction and its perfectly readable, compared to the post on reddit that you may have seen its way more clear than what modders are throwing out now. The logic behind that isnt THAT complex. Even your own easing system in now would work better with more vertical space as far as i can see.
I imagine that yes this will become clearer as more modders understand the system a bit more, but ive yet to want to play due to my modded research tree (made up of my own and others mods) being a complete mess and I, as the player, have to spend time trying to sort it out (which ive yet to find the patience to do). Ive seen people telling others to simply bypass it and dev mode all research!!! Which leads me back to not touching this until theres a solution. Its your game, in alpha, do i agree with this decision? probaby not, am i angry about it? god no.
As always emotion does not convey well over text. Take everything i say as me being disappointed that this system wasnt really modder friendly from the get go, i understand that you cannot take modders into account everytime you make something new but in this instance its really really not working for anyone (who plays modded), I care A LOT about how this game develops and sometimes that can come across with some extreme sounding responses, i DO NOT get angry about games, frustrated yeah sure, but not angry.
Anyways thats enough waffle, lets see what my fellow modders come up with as ive seen 2 system being worked on already.
Also we still need to address the "bug" with the easing system, it seems to be pushing stuff out of the visible space.
Great!
I'll be interested to see what solutions modders can come up with now. For me, I might just add a way to add tabs for A16B. There may be invisible links between different tabs but they'll still be listed in the info pane. We'll see.
I'll join skully on this, the current system is very bad. Some possible improvements:
1) [Absolutely required] Have scrolling up and down (maybe even scale tree according to largest y coord, if y>something then add a scrollbar).
2) [Optional] Have tabs for categories like Agriculture, Electronics etc. (do not do tabs for mods, that will just create chaos).
3) Instead of defs setting x/y, have them set prereqs and a category and generate according to that.
Anything that does not require manually setting coordinates would be ideal. I think that is the most important thing.
The scrolling stuff is secondary. If it's part of the solution, great. But the most important thing is to get rid of the manual coordinate system by any means necessary.
I think that Dingo's suggestion of tabs would work really well, have a tabs for Weapons, Medical, Structural, Defense, Science/Electrical, and anything else than makes sense. Get rid of the manual coords, make it a bit bigger (vertical scrolling or whathaveyou), and then ensure that no techs get pushed off the tree. I agree that having tabs for each mod may cause issues, but possibly consulting the modding community as a whole for more ideas for tabs may be a good idea as well.
Quote from: Tynan on December 23, 2016, 02:43:16 PM
Great!
I'll be interested to see what solutions modders can come up with now. For me, I might just add a way to add tabs for A16B. There may be invisible links between different tabs but they'll still be listed in the info pane. We'll see.
Hello Tynan, look at this.
https://pp.vk.me/c637319/v637319347/24944/XWNCvHls7M0.jpg
its hardcore sk on a16, with about 190-200 researches + error in debug menu that can't to place some of them bcs of lack of space.
I will be Happy if Fluffy research tree + CCL Help system update to A16 or added to A16.
just compare with Fluffy's research tree, its also hardcore sk tree with 200 researches with auto-generation tree. It like a heaven and earth! Not a comparable level. I'm not sure that Ludeon could make better. Can we willnt reinvent the wheel, its already exist and add with respect for his owners to main game?
http://image.prntscr.com/image/6f48e740ad57441181f1d6cbd0e9b61c.png
http://image.prntscr.com/image/e207b9bccb4c464a8284e413bbcd09cc.png
I think the idea of seeing a tech tree is great. It's visually appealing, and it helps people plan what research projects to prioritize.
However, I don't think RimWorld will ever be 100% mod friendly with a visible tech tree like this. Like Tynan said, it would take so much time and effort to get it right, and is it really what we want focused on? Maybe some of the modders in this community has the time to try to figure it out, but it certainly wouldn't be a fun project to work on, I don't think...
I'm a visual learner, and I had no problems with the old research screen :)
game can ensure mod support, but no matter how hard developer try, he can't ensure mod compatability.
techtree is great, but modifications that add 300 research items just neh, it's problem of modification, not game.
tabs or alternative allocation or sliders won't fix problem, it's simply impossible to render such amount of research items properly.
valid and easy to implement - multiple levels for research items, but, modder already can do it, by setting flags and replacing one research item with other, sadly, many mods just add 10 tech items for each level, making things ugly.
Quote from: RawCode on December 25, 2016, 09:57:04 PM
game can ensure mod support, but no matter how hard developer try, he can't ensure mod compatability.
techtree is great, but modifications that add 300 research items just neh, it's problem of modification, not game.
tabs or alternative allocation or sliders won't fix problem, it's simply impossible to render such amount of research items properly.
valid and easy to implement - multiple levels for research items, but, modder already can do it, by setting flags and replacing one research item with other, sadly, many mods just add 10 tech items for each level, making things ugly.
Just look at skyarkhangel's example, and that wasn't made by Tynan, why couldn't that be used, since that is made to be everyone friendly
skyarkhangel's example is invalid in current context, it does not cover cases, when two or more mods add research items in chaotic manner without any prior agreement.
I have mod that add 100 research items, in very nice and clear manner, with colored lines and stuff.
I can ever made icons for items or 3d view.
Then you drop other mod that add additional 100 items with SAME offsets, what next?
how game should handle this situation? additional tab? other plane? move entire research tree below or above?
Yes game can assemble "levels" or "layers" and align research items into nice blocks, but, this will make dependency lines obscure and hard to follow instead.
RawCode, the point is there is no "offset". We're saying the coordinates system is a mistake. There is a difference between a system that relies on 2-3 parameters (e.g. prerequisites, tier/category etc.) and auto-sorts and a system that relies on coordinates.
It's been proven this can be done close to perfectly by 2 separate mods.
If there is a great system implemented and some mods use it badly, that is one case and that is actually acceptable. It's the modder's fault. If the system by design is limited and flawed then it is also by design impossible for modders to use it well.
vanilla tech also perfect, as long as no mods at play.
i want to see "both" nearly perfect mods running at same time and resulting tech screen.
this will be "true" prove.
running standalone mod is easy and safe and do not prove anything.
https://xkcd.com/927/
RawCode you are wrong. Tynan said already a year ago that one of the trends in the development of Rimworld - improving opportunities for mods. If just listen you, since a16, better not to install mods at all. Current research tree "offset" coords its a bullshit, attempt to somehow fix tree auto-generator, which absolutely can't cope with their task.
is you suggestion removal of "bullshit offsets" eg rolling back research screen, right?
such mod is already done and available in steam, just like many other downgrade mods.
i hope you understand, that such actions from side of community if "approved" by developer will result in development halt and no new features will be implemented because "it breaks my year old mod" or "i don't want change system to meet new version systems"
community should assist developer, not just throwing demands and suggestion.
instead of arguing with anything, i will open IDE and try to assemble simple modification, that, will allow to select mods, that allowed to show research items on research screen at this moment.
if two or more mods, overload research screen, i just uncheck conflicting mods and viola, research screen is great again and no feature is lost in process.
Modders are never going to be able to organise a research screen using a shared coordinate system between each other. Thats an impossible task, therefore the coordinate system wont work for modding. The only way that system can work is to leave the manupulation of said coordinates in the hands of the players, you are now expecting the average player to understand xml and the coordinate system so they modify all their mods (each time they download new ones and updates). I cannot see this as something anyone can expect of players. (Players playing the modded game are dev modeing all research as an alternative to using the current screen....thats bad)
I have now seen multiple examples of trees that simply use the prerequisite to position the tree. The one thing they all have in common is no vertical height limit but they work.
So Rawcode i 100% disagree with your statement that we cant render a large amount of research. if you impose restrictions on any acceptable solutions then yes its not possible but are these redtrictions valid? imo no they are not, there are plenty of screens within Rimworld that break outside the visible viewport and have scrolling.....why not this one.
there are no reasons to argue, i will provide and suggest my solution to problem soonish.
also making research items drag gable (with mouse) not very hard, saving information about research item position with profile, also possible, this will eliminate "need to know XML" step, you just open research screen and drag items around, just like windows file explorer with alight to grid off.
Not arguing, just cant accept the point about not being able to render large amounts of research.
Draggable research would be cool but you are still expecting the player to take an action on something they shouldnt have to do.
Draggable research sounds pointless. The whole point of the new screen is to model Civ-like research trees, with linear and predictable progression/bridges. I, as a player, would despise dragging research just to order it correctly.
Fluffy's tab already did this and looked beautiful.
Quote from: RawCode on December 26, 2016, 06:04:50 AM
is you suggestion removal of "bullshit offsets" eg rolling back research screen, right?
such mod is already done and available in steam, just like many other downgrade mods.
i hope you understand, that such actions from side of community if "approved" by developer will result in development halt and no new features will be implemented because "it breaks my year old mod" or "i don't want change system to meet new version systems"
community should assist developer, not just throwing demands and suggestion.
instead of arguing with anything, i will open IDE and try to assemble simple modification, that, will allow to select mods, that allowed to show research items on research screen at this moment.
if two or more mods, overload research screen, i just uncheck conflicting mods and viola, research screen is great again and no feature is lost in process.
The players should not have to go out of their way to download a downgrade just to play the game as intended (I see the mod support as having intended players to have the choice to use mods as a part of this) because the game shouldn't be using a broken system in the first place, whether or not you want to go back to the old system or not.
improper use of any system will break it.
Tynan why don't you make the tech tree have dragable researches in the next hotfix? Basically if two researches are covering each other then allow the player to simply click and drag it to another spot on the tech tree. This seems like it would fix the interim problem until a more permanent solution is found. I've seen Fluffy's relationship mod use this feature already where you can just click on a character's pawn in the window and drag it where you need it to be, making the other pawns more visible if you have too many.
As skyarkhangel pointed out, Fluffy already made a tech tree layout that works just fine with any amount of research options or mods.
Okay, I've addressed this. There will be tabs, as well as vertical scrolling as needed.
Modders could add a simple layout engine to work on just their tabs.
How are research defs that have prerequisites on vanilla defs displayed? do you show the vanilla def on the modded tab?
Hi guys, sorry to throw in my un-informed opinion :-[ , but I would like to give it a try. I only have limited programming experience (2 years of Java in High school), so please bare with me :o .
Now, for the tech tree, wouldn't a mix between tabs and a techweb be the most ellegant solution for both modders and game?
I mean that this way: When you click "research" you get a pop-up that fills the screen. In that pop-up, for example at the top, you have the tab/categories. These categories represent some general themes (eg. Electronics, Medicin, Crafting) and further ones could potentially be added by modders if they feel like it. In each category you have one central research (eg. Basic Electronics). From that core research, which is normally already completed on start, there are strands leading out to different researches (parent child pre-requisit).
If you want to research, say "advanced computing", you need the researches before that, as well as some from the other tabs. You find out about the researchs in other tabs, by clicking on the desired research which will then give you more info as well as show which ones are still missing.
The idea with the techweb is, that it can become a little cluttered, but for one, people could add more tabs for their own research, and second, an algorithm could be written which checks the research parent-child connection and based on that assignes certain distances as space in between. I know it is a bad example, but I thought of something similar to a modular version of Civ Beyond Earth's research web.
Now all of this is based on the assumption that techs are handled as objects with changeable components (Object tech () binary researched = 0; tech.child = XXX; tech.parent = YYY;) and I haven't looked at the actual code for it (as I am scared due to lack of my skills). However, I think from the potential solutions, this could help moders and make future additions a little easier. Further, if a player has a completely cluttered research screen by then, it can be said that the player simply has to many mods installed, or it can create an opportunity for modders to create mods with their own categories, which are still linked to the original researchs.
Anyway, sorry if this wasn't much help and I completely wasted your time :-X , I just wanted to toss in a fresh idea that might be something to think about in the medium to long term.
My research screen is so clogged I can't see the prerequisites to research the things I can see. I'm loving A16 but this is nasty rough.
I've been watching my friend play this game, and streamers and noticed that with mods the research tree is extremely cluttered. I thought of this semi-simple solution, allow under the mods section in game a way to edit the research tree. It would go in look at all the x,y coordinates for the research nodes given from the core game and mods and basically allow you to visually move them around in a manner that is cohesive to researching them. Basically an in game visual xml editor for research trees. This way it allows people to customize the way their research tree looks, and especially when the vertical slider is implemented this would allow easy grouping for mods and other such things.