[A16] Tech Tree Scrolling

[AshbornK9]

game can ensure mod support, but no matter how hard developer try, he can't ensure mod compatability.

techtree is great, but modifications that add 300 research items just neh, it's problem of modification, not game.

tabs or alternative allocation or sliders won't fix problem, it's simply impossible to render such amount of research items properly.

valid and easy to implement - multiple levels for research items, but, modder already can do it, by setting flags and replacing one research item with other, sadly, many mods just add 10 tech items for each level, making things ugly.

Just look at skyarkhangel's example, and that wasn't made by Tynan, why couldn't that be used, since that is made to be everyone friendly

[RawCode]

skyarkhangel's example is invalid in current context, it does not cover cases, when two or more mods add research items in chaotic manner without any prior agreement.

I have mod that add 100 research items, in very nice and clear manner, with colored lines and stuff.
I can ever made icons for items or 3d view.

Then you drop other mod that add additional 100 items with SAME offsets, what next?
how game should handle this situation? additional tab? other plane? move entire research tree below or above?

Yes game can assemble "levels" or "layers" and align research items into nice blocks, but, this will make dependency lines obscure and hard to follow instead.

[Dingo]

RawCode, the point is there is no "offset". We're saying the coordinates system is a mistake. There is a difference between a system that relies on 2-3 parameters (e.g. prerequisites, tier/category etc.) and auto-sorts and a system that relies on coordinates.

It's been proven this can be done close to perfectly by 2 separate mods.

If there is a great system implemented and some mods use it badly, that is one case and that is actually acceptable. It's the modder's fault. If the system by design is limited and flawed then it is also by design impossible for modders to use it well.

[RawCode]

vanilla tech also perfect, as long as no mods at play.

i want to see "both" nearly perfect mods running at same time and resulting tech screen.
this will be "true" prove.

running standalone mod is easy and safe and do not prove anything.

https://xkcd.com/927/

[skyarkhangel]

RawCode you are wrong. Tynan said already a year ago that one of the trends in the development of Rimworld - improving opportunities for mods. If just listen you, since a16, better not to install mods at all. Current research tree "offset" coords its a bullshit, attempt to somehow fix tree auto-generator, which absolutely can't cope with their task.

[RawCode]

is you suggestion removal of "bullshit offsets" eg rolling back research screen, right?
such mod is already done and available in steam, just like many other downgrade mods.

i hope you understand, that such actions from side of community if "approved" by developer will result in development halt and no new features will be implemented because "it breaks my year old mod" or  "i don't want change system to meet new version systems"

community should assist developer, not just throwing demands and suggestion.

instead of arguing with anything, i will open IDE and try to assemble simple modification, that, will allow to select mods, that allowed to show research items on research screen at this moment.

if two or more mods, overload research screen, i just uncheck conflicting mods and viola, research screen is great again and no feature is lost in process.

[skullywag]

Modders are never going to be able to organise a research screen using a shared coordinate system between each other. Thats an impossible task, therefore the coordinate system wont work for modding. The only way that system can work is to leave the manupulation of said coordinates in the hands of the players, you are now expecting the average player to understand xml and the coordinate system so they modify all their mods (each time they download new ones and updates). I cannot see this as something anyone can expect of players. (Players playing the modded game are dev modeing all research as an alternative to using the current screen....thats bad)

I have now seen multiple examples of trees that simply use the prerequisite to position the tree. The one thing they all have in common is no vertical height limit but they work.

So Rawcode i 100% disagree with your statement that we cant render a large amount of research. if you impose restrictions on any acceptable solutions then yes its not possible but are these redtrictions valid? imo no they are not, there are plenty of screens within Rimworld that break outside the visible viewport and have scrolling.....why not this one. 

[RawCode]

there are no reasons to argue, i will provide and suggest my solution to problem soonish.

also making research items drag gable (with mouse) not very hard, saving information about research item position with profile, also possible, this will eliminate "need to know XML" step, you just open research screen and drag items around, just like windows file explorer with alight to grid off.

[skullywag]

Not arguing, just cant accept the point about not being able to render large amounts of research.

Draggable research would be cool but you are still expecting the player to take an action on something they shouldnt have to do.

[Dingo]

Draggable research sounds pointless. The whole point of the new screen is to model Civ-like research trees, with linear and predictable progression/bridges. I, as a player, would despise dragging research just to order it correctly.

Fluffy's tab already did this and looked beautiful.

[AshbornK9]

is you suggestion removal of "bullshit offsets" eg rolling back research screen, right?
such mod is already done and available in steam, just like many other downgrade mods.

i hope you understand, that such actions from side of community if "approved" by developer will result in development halt and no new features will be implemented because "it breaks my year old mod" or  "i don't want change system to meet new version systems"

community should assist developer, not just throwing demands and suggestion.

instead of arguing with anything, i will open IDE and try to assemble simple modification, that, will allow to select mods, that allowed to show research items on research screen at this moment.

if two or more mods, overload research screen, i just uncheck conflicting mods and viola, research screen is great again and no feature is lost in process.

The players should not have to go out of their way to download a downgrade just to play the game as intended (I see the mod support as having intended players to have the choice to use mods as a part of this) because the game shouldn't be using a broken system in the first place, whether or not you want to go back to the old system or not.

[RawCode]

improper use of any system will break it.

[Zapp Brannigan]

Tynan why don't you make the tech tree have dragable researches in the next hotfix? Basically if two researches are covering each other then allow the player to simply click and drag it to another spot on the tech tree. This seems like it would fix the interim problem until a more permanent solution is found. I've seen Fluffy's relationship mod use this feature already where you can just click on a character's pawn in the window and drag it where you need it to be, making the other pawns more visible if you have too many.

[JaxelT]

As skyarkhangel pointed out, Fluffy already made a tech tree layout that works just fine with any amount of research options or mods.

[Tynan]

Okay, I've addressed this. There will be tabs, as well as vertical scrolling as needed.

Modders could add a simple layout engine to work on just their tabs.