My level 13 doctor with 100% sight and manipulation, and a 96% surgery success chance, has either killed or maimed five of the six patients she has operated on.
Are surgery failures supposed to be this crazy or is luck just giving me a tremendous middle finger?
which type of medicine did you use ?
I read something about these now really affecting success chances of operations. I'm not sure about the exact values, but as far as I remember it was something about 90% with glitterworld medicine, 70% with normal medicine and 30% with herbal medicine, which multiplies with your pawn's success chance.
So if you used herbs, your 5/6 un-success rate would fit quite well: 0.96*0,3=0,288
the surgery success chance chart is here: http://rimworldwiki.com/wiki/Surgery_Success_Chance
Using glitterworld medicine gives a +30% bonus, so a healthy surgeon with a minimum of skill using glitterworld is virtually guaranteed success. If your surgeon is blind or missing fingers that'll hurt his chances.
Quote from: Hieronymous Alloy on December 30, 2016, 11:11:04 AM
the surgery success chance chart is here: http://rimworldwiki.com/wiki/Surgery_Success_Chance
Using glitterworld medicine gives a +30% bonus, so a healthy surgeon with a minimum of skill using glitterworld is virtually guaranteed success. If your surgeon is blind or missing fingers that'll hurt his chances.
That made me laugh, totally stealing for my sig.
My lvl 15 doc with 100% con and manip keeps failing as well. I have a prison hospital-bed with 100% light (sun lamp). To improve success chances I should use better medicine? I feel like the 15 with full ability and 100% light on a hospital bed shouldn't fail every organ harvest attempt (killed 5 prisoner's so far).
Actually, I play on a friend's PC, and this very issue is what's stopping me from buying my own copy :-\.
Quote from: Bozobub on December 30, 2016, 12:19:09 PM
Actually, I play on a friend's PC, and this very issue is what's stopping me from buying my own copy :-\.
Well, I mean its minor for me lol. I grow flake to make silver. Not what I would call game breaking, just kinda sucky I guess. I feel like it may have been altered in A16 (someone confirm?) because people were exploiting it too much? Because the same doc can install bionics on my pawns 100% of the time.
Quote from: JuicyPVP on December 30, 2016, 12:10:47 PM
My lvl 15 doc with 100% con and manip keeps failing as well. I have a prison hospital-bed with 100% light (sun lamp). To improve success chances I should use better medicine? I feel like the 15 with full ability and 100% light on a hospital bed shouldn't fail every organ harvest attempt (killed 5 prisoner's so far).
Oddly, light level doesn't matter for surgery chance. (I think it does matter for tending chance and for happiness though). Medical beds just help with recovery, not the surgery.
The surgery calculation is weird but basically all that matters is your surgeon's skill, whether or not the surgeon has working eyes and fingers, whether or not the surgeon has bionic arms (bionic eyes don't help), and the medicine you use.
Harvesting organs can kill prisoners even if it's "successful" if you overdo it -- gotta have at least one kidney in there somewhere. More likely though the prisoners are all dying because they're being fed only herbal medicine and herbal medicine is absolute crap now, medicine is only as good as herbal used to be, and glitterworld is the real stuff.
Quote from: Hieronymous Alloy on December 30, 2016, 01:57:55 PM
Quote from: JuicyPVP on December 30, 2016, 12:10:47 PM
My lvl 15 doc with 100% con and manip keeps failing as well. I have a prison hospital-bed with 100% light (sun lamp). To improve success chances I should use better medicine? I feel like the 15 with full ability and 100% light on a hospital bed shouldn't fail every organ harvest attempt (killed 5 prisoner's so far).
herbal medicine and herbal medicine is absolute crap now, medicine is only as good as herbal used to be, and glitterworld is the real stuff.
Then what's the point of it? lol. I will try an uptick to their medicine. Where do I even get glitterworld medicine? Trade exclusive?
yes trade exclusive.
my last 10 operations with glittermeds = 0 Fails.
something seems broken here, this doesnt sound like the way it should work. Some of these number are either SERIOUSLY awful RNG or a bug.
Quote from: skullywag on December 30, 2016, 02:47:42 PM
something seems broken here, this doesnt sound like the way it should work. Some of these number are either SERIOUSLY awful RNG or a bug.
they all used normal medicine, and that got nerfed with last update.
normal medicine modifier is now 70%
Quote from: Grishnerf on December 30, 2016, 02:49:36 PM
Quote from: skullywag on December 30, 2016, 02:47:42 PM
something seems broken here, this doesnt sound like the way it should work. Some of these number are either SERIOUSLY awful RNG or a bug.
they all used normal medicine, and that got nerfed with last update.
So is that 70% modifying the chances by making them actually lower? (i.e. 70% of original chance of success)
normal medicine modifier is now 70%
i dont know the exact formula.
but it is like that.
if you have surgery success Chance 120% and everything perfect (sterile tiles, vital,medbed etc)
using normal medicine wont get you over 100% success Chance.
Quote from: skullywag on December 30, 2016, 02:47:42 PM
something seems broken here, this doesnt sound like the way it should work. Some of these number are either SERIOUSLY awful RNG or a bug.
Right. Because my doc installs and operates on my pawns 100% never failed not even minor, but he touches a prisoner and becomes Dexter. It is like there is a penalty for operating on the prisoners?
There's no penalty for operating on prisoners, but if your prison is very dirty, there is a penalty for that.
Quote from: JuicyPVP on December 30, 2016, 03:05:13 PM
Quote from: skullywag on December 30, 2016, 02:47:42 PM
something seems broken here, this doesnt sound like the way it should work. Some of these number are either SERIOUSLY awful RNG or a bug.
Right. Because my doc installs and operates on my pawns 100% never failed not even minor, but he touches a prisoner and becomes Dexter. It is like there is a penalty for operating on the prisoners?
Are your prisoners set to herbal medicine while your colonists are set to normal medicine?
In short, it's most likely herbal medicine. I had the issue with this beta with 14+ doctor failing surgery 4/5 times, in an hospital fully lit, with sterile tiles, excellent med beds and vital monitor. In the end, that's just because I use herbal.
It seems like herbal has been nerfed too much. 40% seems ridiculous, and normal down to 70% also seems too low. Plucking numbers from the air, 60% and 90% would seem more reasonable. A decent doctor in a good hospital should be successful with normal med in my mind, a good doctor should be able to be successful in a good hospital with herbal, and glitterworld should be for using when you've not got your doctor or not got anywhere suitable as a hospital
i honestly think there should be a 4th medkit:
herbal 40% (harvest)
improvised medicine 70% (herbal + yayo)
medkit 90% (herbal +Cloth + neutramine)
glittermed 100% (only tradable)
and maybe a warning message if the used medicine is to low for surgery.
to make it even more clear.
My current settlement had a very skilled gunner but with a missing eye. Good as I am, I let the doctor take one eye from one of my prisoners, so he can install it into the gunner. Extraction works well, but as the doctor tries to operate on my gunner, he somehow manages to cut the gunners head off in one swift motion. Room was clean, doctor had medicine level 9, was completly healthy and also using glitterworld medicine. That was not his first operation to go complety bonkers, that "fixed" surgery chance is one hell of a colonist killer
It is probably the use of normal medicine
In Alpha 16, all medicines (except Gliiterworld) have been nerfed. Normal medicine has a medical potency of 70% and Herbal has 40%. If you're using normal medicine, your doctor's chances will be a mere 67.2% as opposed to 96. A sterile room will help slightly, improving chances by 10% (to 73.92% in this case)
Edit: You'll basically need a bionic godlike (or at least a strong master) doctor to even come close to guaranteeing success, perhaps a hit of go-juice to seal the deal, and a sterile operating theatre.
Hope that's helped
A sterile room only gives a 3% boost, by my math. Actually guaranteeing success with normal medicine requires bionic arms, plus wake-up, go-juice, and luciferium; it's not quite 100% if you only use two of the drugs even in a sterile room.
I stopped using anything lower than glitterworld for colonist medical purposes in case of operations and surgery.
Additional, I only do surgery with skill 12+ medics, anything below is too risky in my eyes. But still, there are always a few casualties, sadly.
Quote from: Zhentar on December 31, 2016, 01:22:07 PM
A sterile room only gives a 3% boost, by my math. Actually guaranteeing success with normal medicine requires bionic arms, plus wake-up, go-juice, and luciferium; it's not quite 100% if you only use two of the drugs even in a sterile room.
Hah, ok, that's crazy harsh.
It seems like a "fair" balance point would be to make actual medicine have no modifier on surgeon success chance, neither positive nor negative.
I think it would really help if the chance of success (all factors taken into account) was displayed next to the operation when you pick the surgery to perform.
Or alternatively somehow displayed next to the surgery choice once a surgeon is assigned to the task.
(With hoverover providing a breakdown of what is affecting the chances.)
The colonist's surgery success change is not the actual success chance, it is misleading.
ok i did a test "gonna make everyone a bionic wonder and replace everything i can" colony. Jaws......jeeezus, the amount of decapitations....colony ended after my lvl 14 doc with normal meds on a masterwork hospital bed with vitals and sterile floors decapped 4 pawns on the trot while trying to remove jaws. The colony ended cuz i damn well closed the game and started modding this.
So I am not the only one. My 14 skill doctor (perfect health) installing a bionic arm killed the patient 3/4 times in a sterile hospital with hospital beds, lamp next to it and TV (I know most of those don't matter, but dammnit, I did everything I could). That's right, 3/4 times mean I am save scumming, but that is what I am reduced to; and it makes me feel dirty!
Thanks to Sychers I always need to install something on someone.
I have never seen glitter meds for sale. I would have no problem installing a mod that lets me make it. (hint, link please).
It is kinda sad that now it's almost mandatory to have Glitterworld Medicine just so you can have successful operations, or a skilled and healthy doctor who's also on Go-Juice if you're going for ordinary medicine (but even that may not guarantee success).
Thankfully GW Medicine isn't really overly expensive, and ~110-120 silver is somewhat reasonable to guarantee an operation success. I won't set up operation bills unless I get hands on GW Medicine. Gives it a 'true' purpose I suppose...
glittermeds have a purpose now. get used to it, jeez..
bionics is endgame.
if you make normale medicine stronger again so that you can use it for 100% surgery, glittermeds become useless again, cause you can MASS PRODUCE normal medicine now.
if you get a glittermed = 100% success surgery for around 120 silver.
it's endgame. it should be that way.
if you want to Play a full bionic colony with extra mods, then just get one more mod to get normal medicine back to 100% eefficiency.
Whether bionics is end game or not is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Even installing peg legs or dentures is fatal more often than not.
losing a leg early game in a crashlanded Scenario is FATAL and should be punished.why even lose the leg in the fiorst place? pegleg trick? :D
Don't seem to harsh in my eyes. I mean, I lost a few guys, but that's realistic. Operating people should be dangerous, especially in a colony, with let's face it, limited medical resources, all things considered.
Bionics isnt even what we are discussing here. Low level surgeries require glitterworld to have any chance of success. I only mentioned it as the name of my test i didnt even get to bionics. Simply removing a jaw resulting in 4 decapitations. The failures are crazy, but thats another issue. For my doc to do it 4 times due to failing the chance check is crazy and to be clear ive since tried it again with the same result, so im either unlucky as hell or this just aint worth the time. No bother for me ill just mod it to suit my tastes.
That glitterworld medicine is required to 100% guaranteed successfully install bionics, I am perfectly okay with. What I'm not so okay with is that installing a peg leg with herbal medicine is more likely to kill the pawn than be successful. Or that a major failure when you aren't replacing a healthy limb is 100% guaranteed death (bizarrely, replacing healthy limbs is much safer, because the limb can absorb some of the damage without killing the pawn). Even minor failures have a relatively high risk of lethality.
Quote from: Aiven on January 04, 2017, 12:02:36 PM
Don't seem to harsh in my eyes. I mean, I lost a few guys, but that's realistic. Operating people should be dangerous, especially in a colony, with let's face it, limited medical resources, all things considered.
Yes, installing a peg leg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLA6A2ft0P8) is an advanced medical procedure with a significant risk of death even in modern medical facilities.
Id even be happy with surgery succes but high chance for infection upon success. That seems more feasible in my eyes.
My main issue with the surgery system as a whole is that the actual success chance is hidden. It is not apparent to the player what the actual success chance is for a given surgery. How does that chance change based on the type of medicine you use, or the lighting of the area, or the cleanliness of the hospital? That is hidden from the player and that is bad.
@skullywag
ok now i understand you and the Problem with early game surgeries. and you are right.
surgeries would most probably result in death.
i'm just super careful in combat and hunting in General to not get into such Situation.
in my last few games i nearly never lost a limb or anything in early game. (except the usual suspects [few fingers/toes])
i can remember one time, 1 pawn with a missing leg was lying for about 2-3 seasons in bed before i could buy a glittermed of a orbital Trader to install a bionic leg.
it felt really good after all this time to see him hauling like a champ again.
but for that early game surgery stuff (pegleg etc)
i would Support the idea that failed surgeries dont destroy the items in the process AND give severe infections instead of injuries.
I see several people complaining than surgery needs to be rebalanced, and one person fighting tooth and nail to explain it as good. The problem is you can't keep saying bionics needs glitter meds. First of all, glitter meds are not guaranteed (I have not seen any in 1.5 years). Second, I can't install a prosthetic hand to my colonist without stabbing him 3-5 times in the chest and killing him 3/4 times. This is not normal/balanced/good. Please stop the false justification.
you see them as a given. i see them as a Bonus with high risk until mid/lategame.
I'm slowly working on a mod to address this (sorry if this is seen as self-promotion)
It probably could be done very quickly, but watching videos and the fact I'm generally not the industrious + very neurotic type will mean it'll probably take much longer than it should
Quote from: skullywag on January 04, 2017, 12:13:47 PM
Id even be happy with surgery succes but high chance for infection upon success. That seems more feasible in my eyes.
Yeah, that seems like it would be a good tweak. Have surgery use the listed success chance, IE., Low chance of failure with decent skill, but have a chance of post surgical infection that's like 60/30/0 depending on use of herbal / standard / glitterworld meds.
It would also make sense to make it easier to install peg legs. The game already tracks surgical difficulty, just removing a carcinoma is the only surgery with a difficulty modifier.
That would probably make the system even harder unless you could cheese the disease prevention meds.
The biggest problem IMO is that you cant see success odds. That should be more obviously displayed (A mod would be great for that). Ideally success should be higher too but knowing the odds is the first step.
Id really like to see A17 have re-balanced medicine, and self self bandage. Thats currently the most annoying system in the game, and for me the one that detracts most from gameplay.
Success chance is effectively the surgeon's base surgery success chance multiplied by the medical potency of the medicine they're using.
Breakdown
For example, a perfectly healthy level 10 doctor has a 93% chance of success before factoring in medicine. Say he/she uses ordinary medicine; that has a medical potency of 0.7. The surgeon's surgery success chance is now a much less attractive 65.1% (although not explicitly displayed), and that's in a clean, but not sterile room.
Now to move onto how room cleanliness affects surgery: A clean room is neutral in terms of surgery success chance (i.e. it has a surgery success chance factor of 1.00). For every 0.2 cleanliness, the factor is changed by 0.01, or 1%. This effectively means that for every 0.2 cleanliness below 0 the room is, surgery success chance is dropped by 1% - and conversely chances increase by 1% for every 0.2 cleanliness above 0 the room is. This means that a fully sterile room improves surgery success chance by a mere 3% proportionate to what it is.
So this is effectively the formula when calculating room cleanliness surgery success chance factor:
S = 1+((C/0.2)/100)
Where S is the surgery success chance factor, and C is room cleanliness (I don't know how to do that fancy, proper formula formatting thing)
So these 3 rooms would affect the doctor's surgery success chance in the following ways...
A room with Wood Flooring (for example) - 0 cleanliness: Surgery success chance will remain at 65.1%
A room with Sterile Tiles - 0.6 cleanliness: Surgery success chance will be 67.053% (65.1 * 1.03)
A room with Dirt or Sand flooring - -1 cleanliness: Surgery success chance will be 61.845% (65.1 * 0.95)
TL;DR
Conclusion: The actual surgery success chance can therefore be calculated using the following formula...
S = (D*M)*(1+((C/0.2)/100))
Where S is overall surgery success chance, D is the doctor's base surgery success chance, M is medical potency of medicine used, and C is room cleanliness
You're welcome
Maybe I got a little carried away?
Thank you for supplying the formula, good sir!
Isn't there a factor for recipes which effect surgery success chance, also?
<surgerySuccessChanceFactor>0.6</surgerySuccessChanceFactor> is the only example I could find in the core game, and it's found within the ExciseCarcinoma recipe.
Would that just get multiplied by S, or one of the other variables in your equation? I'm curious, and too lazy to look it up myself :P
Quote from: O Negative on January 04, 2017, 06:57:36 PM
<surgerySuccessChanceFactor>0.6</surgerySuccessChanceFactor> is the only example I could find in the core game, and it's found within the ExciseCarcinoma recipe.
That means that a doctor that operates on a Carcinoma is 60% as likely to succeed as any other op, as chances would be multiplied by 60%. Looking back at the 65.1% example, this means that particular surgeon would only have a 39.01% success rate if they were to attempt to remove that carcinoma. You'd basically most definitely need Glitterworld Medicine for that, and only the very best and/or bionic surgeons to guarantee success
Good info to know, thank you!
I like to play with this kind of stuff in personal mods, and it helps to know exactly what my altered numbers are doing :)
a positive side effect is that you can now train medicine cheap and easily by installing peg legs with herbs on your prisoners as I found out myself (accidentally ofc ^^)
Quote from: skullywag on January 04, 2017, 12:13:47 PM
Id even be happy with surgery succes but high chance for infection upon success. That seems more feasible in my eyes.
Probably true. Less chance of killing the patient directly and more chance of an infection, seems good.
I don't know the surgical difficulty of installing a peg leg, but it seems plausible that it's fairly easy, compared to more complicated stuff.
Sticking a piece of wood onto a stump is more straightforward than say removing a leg and putting the peg leg on. Although the only way I could forsee the latter (which happens more often than you may think) is if one loses their foot on that leg.
Excising carcinomas would definitely be more risky of perhaps infection compared to sticking a peg leg onto a stump.
Less relevant but my mind somehow strayed to this: I wonder if Tynan would ever make other HeDiffs such as Strokes and Pneumonia... ouch
Quote from: XeoNovaDan on January 04, 2017, 04:06:35 PM
Success chance is effectively the surgeon's base surgery success chance multiplied by the medical potency of the medicine they're using.
Breakdown
For example, a perfectly healthy level 10 doctor has a 93% chance of success before factoring in medicine. Say he/she uses ordinary medicine; that has a medical potency of 0.7. The surgeon's surgery success chance is now a much less attractive 65.1% (although not explicitly displayed), and that's in a clean, but not sterile room.
Now to move onto how room cleanliness affects surgery: A clean room is neutral in terms of surgery success chance (i.e. it has a surgery success chance factor of 1.00). For every 0.2 cleanliness, the factor is changed by 0.01, or 1%. This effectively means that for every 0.2 cleanliness below 0 the room is, surgery success chance is dropped by 1% - and conversely chances increase by 1% for every 0.2 cleanliness above 0 the room is. This means that a fully sterile room improves surgery success chance by a mere 3% proportionate to what it is.
So this is effectively the formula when calculating room cleanliness surgery success chance factor:
S = 1+((C/0.2)/100)
Where S is the surgery success chance factor, and C is room cleanliness (I don't know how to do that fancy, proper formula formatting thing)
So these 3 rooms would affect the doctor's surgery success chance in the following ways...
A room with Wood Flooring (for example) - 0 cleanliness: Surgery success chance will remain at 65.1%
A room with Sterile Tiles - 0.6 cleanliness: Surgery success chance will be 67.053% (65.1 * 1.03)
A room with Dirt or Sand flooring - -1 cleanliness: Surgery success chance will be 61.845% (65.1 * 0.95)
TL;DR
Conclusion: The actual surgery success chance can therefore be calculated using the following formula...
S = (D*M)*(1+((C/0.2)/100))
Where S is overall surgery success chance, D is the doctor's base surgery success chance, M is medical potency of medicine used, and C is room cleanliness
You're welcome
Maybe I got a little carried away?
Hi, XeoNovaDan!
What can you say about roomSurgerySuccessChanceFactorExponent? Lets say Ill set this factor to 10..
Doest it mean that every 0.2 cleanliness will now provide 10% multiplier intead of 1%?
What are hell "exponent" means? I looks like I need to study in MIT to tweak out surgery chance in this game ))
Can you please hint me how different value of this "exponent" will alter the final value for room success?
Thanks in advance, good luck!
I'd really like to see crutches added to the base game. It shouldn't be necessary to do a near impossible surgery (installing a peg leg) just to release a prisoner/guest who has lost a leg.
A crutch occupying the weapon slot and granting as much movement as a peg leg, maybe less ;D neat idea, would like to see that.
Quote from: grifo on January 19, 2017, 08:58:01 AM
What can you say about roomSurgerySuccessChanceFactorExponent? Lets say Ill set this factor to 10..
I've never noticed the Exponent factors in bills to be absolutely honest, but I'd assume that it's the room surgery success chance factor set the the power of x, with x being the roomSurgerySuccessChanceFactorExponent factor.
So if a room had 0.6 cleanliness (103% room success chance) and the exponent was say 2 (I don't know the default, so just going with 2), the surgery success chance factor in regards to room cleanliness would be the room cleanliness bonus squared. In this case, it'd be 1.03*1.03, which'd be 1.0609, so the surgery success chance would be multiplied by 1.0609 instead of 1.03
The factor exponent is only applied when the factor is less than 1, so it makes operating in a dirty room much worse but doesn't make sterile rooms any better.
Ah, interesting
Quote from: Zhentar on January 19, 2017, 01:13:53 PM
The factor exponent is only applied when the factor is less than 1, so it makes operating in a dirty room much worse but doesn't make sterile rooms any better.
Thank you very much!
Well, all that system makes little sense anyway and I just decided to avoid any additional parameters in my tweaking. Dirty rooms should result in infections but not in torn off legs.
Destroyed body part should cause pain
Natural added body parts should have option for heddiffs like implants
Looking at the quality and quantity of medical mods I suppose that this part of game is really in ALPHA state :D
Health system need some serious overhaul and more modding firendly nature.
Good luck!
So really the problem is that the formula doesn't involve a variable describing the difficulty of the operation.... something to separate the relative ease of removing a limb and replacing it with a simple prosthetic from the extensive challenge of replacing an internal organ or attaching a bionic part to one's nervous system.
While it makes perfect sense for the latter to require optimal conditions and optimal tools for any reasonable chance of success, a highly-skilled doctor can perform routine surgery using salt, old kitchen utensils and paper scissors in a dirty room on a pile of torn-up cushions without slicing off body parts.
Quote from: skullywag on January 04, 2017, 12:04:32 PM
Bionics isnt even what we are discussing here. Low level surgeries require glitterworld to have any chance of success. I only mentioned it as the name of my test i didnt even get to bionics. Simply removing a jaw resulting in 4 decapitations. The failures are crazy, but thats another issue. For my doc to do it 4 times due to failing the chance check is crazy and to be clear ive since tried it again with the same result, so im either unlucky as hell or this just aint worth the time. No bother for me ill just mod it to suit my tastes.
If I may ask, have you posted the fix mod anywhere?
To deal with the medicine and operation success issue maybe there could be different levels/difficulties of operation just as there are different levels of medicine. For example, installing a bionic leg with all its technology and getting muscles to work with it would take a lot of skill but also decent medicine. Sealing a capping leg that has been shot off at the knee and sticking a wooden stick on the end shouldn't take that much skill or medicine, however as someone previously mentioned, the risk of infection should be higher. Installing an eyepatch shouldn't be as risky as installing a bionic eye (not sure if it actually is but you get the point). Removing an organ should take less skill and meds than installing an organ. Dunno how all that could be coded cause it'd be based on a whole bunch of factors but it's already based on a bunch of factors so why not?
Precise medicine calculation in this video :
Quote from: pdxsean on January 13, 2017, 11:34:39 PM
Hey everyone, I've made a short tutorial recently that will help you avoid surgery failure in Alpha 16. If you've been frustrated by seemingly arbitrary surgery death, or just want to learn more about A16 medicine, give it a look!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q4td8g5dQE
Hope you guys enjoy and let me know what you think!
Quote from: Ragnarok on January 20, 2017, 12:44:55 PM
To deal with the medicine and operation success issue maybe there could be different levels/difficulties of operation just as there are different levels of medicine. For example, installing a bionic leg with all its technology and getting muscles to work with it would take a lot of skill but also decent medicine. Sealing a capping leg that has been shot off at the knee and sticking a wooden stick on the end shouldn't take that much skill or medicine, however as someone previously mentioned, the risk of infection should be higher. Installing an eyepatch shouldn't be as risky as installing a bionic eye (not sure if it actually is but you get the point). Removing an organ should take less skill and meds than installing an organ. Dunno how all that could be coded cause it'd be based on a whole bunch of factors but it's already based on a bunch of factors so why not?
Basically someone would need to add modifiers for each particular action.
Installing an eyepatch should have a modifier of something like 300%, since it does not even involve any actual surgery, which would looks something like 0.93% (at lv10 doctor) x 0.4 Herbal x 3.00 = 116% success.
Installing a peg leg, perhaps something like 200%. (.93x.4x2=74.4%)
New lung, 75% (.93x.4x.75=27.9%)
Bionic Leg, 50% (.93x.4x.50=23.3%)
This way it quickly becomes unrealistic to do anything beyond basic level medical procedures using low tier medicine, while also allowing for a reasonable chance for a good doc to not decapitate someone while applying an eyepatch.
Look at the video above and you will see you can get a more than hundred percent success chance easily.
Just avoid to lose manipulation, sight or consciousness with your doctor and use glitterworld medicine and it's almost already done.
Quote from: NeverPire on January 23, 2017, 06:57:38 AM
Just avoid to lose manipulation, sight or consciousness with your doctor and use glitterworld medicine and it's almost already done.
I'm not sure what good your guide would be - using GW medicine is pretty much all you need. A guide on how to do it with herbal and low-tech beds would be interesting. :)
Can I propose an additional definition for operations. "IsInvasiveOperation:Noninvasive/Minimal/Open". Non invasive surgery, like putting a piece of cloth with a triangle attached over someone's ruined eye or fitting a peg leg requires no medicine or anesthesia and basically no medical expertise. Minimally invasive surgery requires medicine and skill in medicine to be a success and encompasses any small scale surgery, such as attaching bionics to lost limbs (opening up a healed arm stump has to be an easier operation than cutting it off first and going from there). Open surgery like carving someone open to remove organs requires glittermeds and/or considerable expertise to be successful. Cancerous growths (carcinomas) already have a difficulty modifier, that can and should be used to offset difficulty of operation further from these baseline requirements. Additionally, instead of "This operation requires X or better", it should read "This operation should be done with at least X for a good chance of success" and while doctors will not operate on someone that they don't have the requisite medicine for, you should be able to force prioritise it and they will go ahead with the best medicine they have, their chances offset by the difference between the medical potency of their available medicine to what is preferred.
Today I had a catastrophic failure(head cut off) while trying to install a bionic eye, using Glitterworld medicine, surgeon was at 17 medicine, with sterile (clean)floors and a proper hospital bed. That seems wrong.
Quote from: XeoNovaDan on January 04, 2017, 04:06:35 PM
Success chance is effectively the surgeon's base surgery success chance multiplied by the medical potency of the medicine they're using.
Breakdown
For example, a perfectly healthy level 10 doctor has a 93% chance of success before factoring in medicine. Say he/she uses ordinary medicine; that has a medical potency of 0.7. The surgeon's surgery success chance is now a much less attractive 65.1% (although not explicitly displayed), and that's in a clean, but not sterile room.
Now to move onto how room cleanliness affects surgery: A clean room is neutral in terms of surgery success chance (i.e. it has a surgery success chance factor of 1.00). For every 0.2 cleanliness, the factor is changed by 0.01, or 1%. This effectively means that for every 0.2 cleanliness below 0 the room is, surgery success chance is dropped by 1% - and conversely chances increase by 1% for every 0.2 cleanliness above 0 the room is. This means that a fully sterile room improves surgery success chance by a mere 3% proportionate to what it is.
So this is effectively the formula when calculating room cleanliness surgery success chance factor:
S = 1+((C/0.2)/100)
Where S is the surgery success chance factor, and C is room cleanliness (I don't know how to do that fancy, proper formula formatting thing)
So these 3 rooms would affect the doctor's surgery success chance in the following ways...
A room with Wood Flooring (for example) - 0 cleanliness: Surgery success chance will remain at 65.1%
A room with Sterile Tiles - 0.6 cleanliness: Surgery success chance will be 67.053% (65.1 * 1.03)
A room with Dirt or Sand flooring - -1 cleanliness: Surgery success chance will be 61.845% (65.1 * 0.95)
TL;DR
Conclusion: The actual surgery success chance can therefore be calculated using the following formula...
S = (D*M)*(1+((C/0.2)/100))
Where S is overall surgery success chance, D is the doctor's base surgery success chance, M is medical potency of medicine used, and C is room cleanliness
You're welcome
Maybe I got a little carried away?
you did... but that's fine... thanks for breaking this down for me :)
Quote from: KingKnee on January 23, 2017, 06:27:05 PM
Today I had a catastrophic failure(head cut off) while trying to install a bionic eye, using Glitterworld medicine, surgeon was at 17 medicine, with sterile (clean)floors and a proper hospital bed. That seems wrong.
It depends of the real success chance of your doctor calculated with his consciousness, his manipulation, his view and his skill.
So if your doctor have a BTL-implant and an eye off, it can turn around 35%.
Quote from: NeverPire on January 24, 2017, 05:34:04 AM
Quote from: KingKnee on January 23, 2017, 06:27:05 PM
Today I had a catastrophic failure(head cut off) while trying to install a bionic eye, using Glitterworld medicine, surgeon was at 17 medicine, with sterile (clean)floors and a proper hospital bed. That seems wrong.
It depends of the real success chance of your doctor calculated with his consciousness, his manipulation, his view and his skill.
So if your doctor have a BTL-implant and an eye off, it can turn around 35%.
Well she does have a Joywire implant so I guess that could have been it.