I've noticed that people consistently reference the lore, which means people tend to read it for the interest of reading it. It's really well written, and concise. I do feel though, that as a community, we should discuss it a bit more in-depth. Fill in the blanks, so to speak. I should be more specific when I talk about blanks, when I say blanks, I don't mean that there is anything missing from the lore, per-say, as it essentially covers all of it's bases. What I would like to see, however, is a deeper understanding of what exactly is going on, through the communities eyes.
The following are the links to the current lore quick-primer, and the Longsleep-Revival brief, in that order.
1) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pIZyKif0bFbBWten4drrm7kfSSfvBoJPgG9-ywfN8j8/pub
2) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fUO3KKbAbTxMP1lqphnnodY0NPoOVblCUkDw-54MDUc/pub
I had a bit of a moment, and while re-reading the longsleep survival brief, I noticed that the Ordo Historia stated that humanity is smeared across an area of the galaxy about 1,200 lightyears wide. I was curious about this, so naturally I investigated, and did a bit of math. Using a figure that measured the area of the galaxy in meters, I found that the galaxy has an area of about 6.65E60 meters. This is an absolute shitload, and I should mention that I am -not- by -any- means qualified to do this math, but bear with me, I then took the liberty of assuming that the area humanity has settled in is going to be cubic, because I couldn't be arsed into doing the math for the volume in meters of a sphere 1,200 light years wide, that said, I calculated the volume of the area humanity has settled to be roughly 1.63E29 meters in volume. (Likely less, given that I used a cubic format.) This is also a shitload, but not even nearly as large a shitload as the shitload posted above, in fact, in reference to the galaxy, the area that humanity has settled is about 0.000000000000000000000000000002451127819548872% the total area of the galaxy. I didn't put that into scientific notation for the "Wow!" factor, naturally.
That said, the core worlds concept effectively would not/can not exist, as the area being discussed here would be relatively homogeneous in reference to the stars. I would think core worlds would focus mostly of random star clusters in our local area, rather than the actual core of the galaxy. Which might have an impact on other things, such as the estimated amount of time for a civilization to reach transcendence, given a rough time period, my idea is that we might need a different time-frame to work with, given the lore.
I'm not -suggesting- anything, I would just like input from my fellow folks about what they think about the lore, and how can we as a community add depth to the game. (Without any actual programming on Tynan's part.) If we do come up with something amazing, we can naturally move it to suggestions, and perhaps he can handle it from there. All I am aiming to discuss is editing a google document, nothing that would take weeks to achieve.
Humans couldn't really live in the true core anyway - that's all black hole territory and you wouldn't have humans anymore. :P
I always just assumed it was near the core, and that actually calling it the core was just slang.
Slower-Than-Light travel between stars would require equipment that has a mean time between failure measured in thousands of years, and the energy to continue the maintenance of the journey in complete darkness and utter cold for that same period. It is just as much science fiction as Faster-Than-Light travel.
Interstellar travel requires a fantasy aspect, a willingness to live without some laws of our universe for the sake of story.
Quote from: milon on March 23, 2017, 06:38:18 AM
Humans couldn't really live in the true core anyway - that's all black hole territory and you wouldn't have humans anymore. :P
I always just assumed it was near the core, and that actually calling it the core was just slang.
I thought the same thing until further research, and a bit of tom-foolery with the RimLore, as it turns out, the only reason that area is dangerous, isn't necessarily because of the black hole, it's because of the super-novae that happen closer to that area, which in turn make it uninhabitable, not because life couldn't live there for awhile, just that the formation of life in that area would be difficult due to the sheer number of cosmic neighbors. Of course, I am talking of the "outer-core" effectively, not the actual core, which is as as you said, uninhabitable.
According to RimLore, humans have an decreased sensitivity to radiation, which would effectively expand our "habitable-zone" a bit, this when paired that that area in question would have an extremely high metallic content in it's stars would mean you could find all kind of valuable elements in that "DANGER-ZONE" which would be highly lucrative, in the right hands.
Sorry to keep droning on, I'm not doing it intentionally I swear, but the "core" we are talking about, COULD perhaps be in reference to one of the arms of our so-precious galaxy? I'm just running on the assumption that the arms themselves would have a higher local star-density, so to speak.
Thank you for the input, Milon.
Quote from: AngleWyrm on March 23, 2017, 06:58:03 AM
Slower-Than-Light travel between stars would require equipment that has a mean time between failure measured in thousands of years, and the energy to continue the maintenance of the journey in complete darkness and utter cold for that same period. It is just as much science fiction as Faster-Than-Light travel.
Interstellar travel requires a fantasy aspect, a willingness to live without some laws of our universe for the sake of story.
Now on to AngleWyrm, in RimLore faster than light travel is impossible, but it never says exactly how fast we have gotten. Assuming a ship is travelling at 99.99% the speed of light, and assuming that the ship has that bad-ass "personal shield" that my berserker always seems to wear, thus immunizing it to space-junk which could devastate it. Going up to those speeds effectively makes time slow down to the observer, while in all reality time itself is still passing at the standard rate outside of the craft. I do not know the percentage at what time would dilate, save that it might ease up on those issues a bit, when paired with the other tech we are potentially working with here. (I know I use the term assume repeatedly, but working with what I have, I find it necessary, sorry.)
RimLore says that we cannot into FTL, it does -not- say however that we cannot travel at 99.99% the speed of light, nor does physics. The only 'rule' we have effectively is that we cannot go at the speed of, or faster than, light. Other than that, the RimLore gives us a surprising amount of flexibility on the issue.
Now if we want to contribute to the lore, what type of crazy drive would we have that could pull us up to these speeds? These are the gaps I want to dick around with in filling. I think it would be fun to do with the community.
Naturally we are going to have multiple varieties of the same general thing (convergent technological development, and all that.) but I would think it would be fun. :)
Thanks again for the input!
That's a really fun topic for Google / YouTube / Wikipedia / etc.
Here's one decent hit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstellar_travel#Propulsion
And another:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/02/170201162456.htm
I think Rimworld lore could use another pass. Not because I'm fan of long in-game books and fanfiction, but to make things a little more defined and consistent. Race for the Galaxy is a board game which technically has very little written lore, but when you look at the cards, their names, their function you realize it's all very consistent and well thought out.
QuoteNow on to AngleWyrm, in RimLore faster than light travel is impossible, but it never says exactly how fast we have gotten. Assuming a ship is travelling at 99.99% the speed of light, and assuming that the ship has that bad-ass "personal shield" that my berserker always seems to wear, thus immunizing it to space-junk which could devastate it. Going up to those speeds effectively makes time slow down to the observer, while in all reality time itself is still passing at the standard rate outside of the craft. I do not know the percentage at what time would dilate, save that it might ease up on those issues a bit, when paired with the other tech we are potentially working with here. (I know I use the term assume repeatedly, but working with what I have, I find it necessary, sorry.)
RimLore says that we cannot into FTL, it does -not- say however that we cannot travel at 99.99% the speed of light, nor does physics. The only 'rule' we have effectively is that we cannot go at the speed of, or faster than, light. Other than that, the RimLore gives us a surprising amount of flexibility on the issue.
Now if we want to contribute to the lore, what type of crazy drive would we have that could pull us up to these speeds? These are the gaps I want to dick around with in filling. I think it would be fun to do with the community.
Naturally we are going to have multiple varieties of the same general thing (convergent technological development, and all that.) but I would think it would be fun. :)
Thanks again for the input!
It's not so much an issue of power but of propellant. You have to carry some form of 'mass' to chuck behind you in order to push yourself forward. Alistair Reynolds' fiction works contained ships called 'Lighthuggers' which would accelerate at 1g (not really rapid acceleration) and reach 99.99% of C in 1-2 years, without taking special relativity into account. The 'magic' part was his drive which he never explained, which could infinitely accelerate a vessel at 1g; it hints at generating exotic particles (or possibly gravity itself) from a controlled singularity in order to propel the ship.
Without this magic drive, a ship would have to carry its propellant. Project Valkyrie proposes to do just that, by carrying an anti-matter tank at the front and the back; 1 to accelerate, 1 to decelerate. Anti-matter (at least at the moment) would be the only feasible fuel/propellant to use. The issue is that this would reach a tipping point where the mass of the anti-matter tank would grow faster (relatively) than the propulsion gained from it, thus having a finite amount of acceleration that could be achieved. This would probably be nowhere near 99.99% C.
There are a few good suggestions in how to accelerate indefinitely: one being a modified version of a ramscoop/ramjet that would work using a laser station based in the solar system of origin to beam light at a 'lightsail' to accelerate and a solar/magnetic sail to decelerate using the destination star's magnetic field (of course an unbelievable power source and laser in the origin system would be needed). Another method is a 'standard' ramscoop modified to use GUT mono-poles to catalyse proton decay in background hydrogen to give the standard ramscoop, which is unfeasible, high enough performance to make it feasible. Please don't test me on these theories as I'm not an astrophysicist.
I personally don't think hyper-light is possible, but I completely believe traveling at sub-light speeds to distant star system is possible. In theory, if you could accelerate at 1g indefinitely then time would exponentially slow on-board the ship meaning you could travel any distance in a lifetime, although this is only beneficial for the traveler as thousands, millions or billions of years would pass for everyone planet-side.
The means of propulsion isn't that important anyway. Let's not forget we're talking about a Sci-Fi game. We've been give the distance already, let's work with that.
According to Ordo Historia:
- Interstellar space travel started at 2100 AD.
- The human
infested inhabited cosmos spans across 1200 LY (~370 PC). - The origin point of interstellar travel is (obviously) the Sol system (a.k.a. where we are now).
First of all, this means we're talking about a ~sphere with a ~1200 LY
diameter, with our solar system being in or very near the center. This means that the
slowest way we can reach this distance is with a spacecraft launched in 2100 AD that travels 3400 years at the speed of ~52900 km/s, roughly 17,6% of the speed of light. For reference, Earth orbits the Sun at the average speed of ~30 km/s and the average speed of Comets in our solar system is ~40-50 km/s. Stellar objects usually need either a close supernova explosion, a black hole's gravity assist or other rare anomalies to reach even 1% of the speed of light.
Second, this distance limit means we're still within the Orion–Cygnus Arm of the Milky Way Galaxy. Therefore the concept of Core and Rim, although obviously not referring to the Galaxy Core or Rim, can still be easily applied. Although we won't reach other Arms in our Galaxy, we do reach the edge of this Arm where star density drops considerably. Therefore Core refers to the central, more star-dense area of the Arm, while Rim refers to the edges of the Arm.
Since our solar system (a.k.a. the start point) is well within the central area of this Arm, and since it is most likely the center of humanity's literal sphere of influence in the cosmos, the Core is mostly the innermost area of human-inhabited space too. Transcendent and Glitter worlds therefore are bound to be more common near our original star system both due to being part of the Core area and due to sufficient time to reach such technological states.
The edge of the sphere consists of two areas where the dense central regions of the local Arm continues, while the rest is the less star-dense area closer to the edge of the Arm. This latter one is the area described as the true Rim.
In fact, this sphere is probably more like an ellipsoid, expanding outwards more rapidly near the star-dense regions due to more stable development and communication.
Transcendent worlds are an interesting subject. I've always pictured them as something along the lines of Herbert W. Franke's The Orchid Cage.
How could you imagine "transcendence"?
1. Digital consciousness
Reaching a technological point where the people of a planet transfer their consciousness in a giant super-computer?
Immortality (back ups - multiple)
Matter manipulation (Nanites....)
Dyson - Spheres and other cool SciFi
This form would be mighty but not "godlike"
2. Artificial evolution / Acending like in Stargate / Super-Intelligence like in Perry Rhodan
Reaching a physical or mental state where you acend in a energy form
This would represent "godlike" as we know it at the best, but your influence is limited on a planet or a starsystem.
You are not omnipotent.
3. ????
3. Mechanoid or Genetic Downfall ( Matrix / SkyNet / Necrons / Zerg / Zombies / Tyranids )
I think this Discussion is important to answer the questions about how Space Traders Work, the Level of Glitterworld Tech out there and why the AK-47 and M16 are still around :)
Quote from: Yetei on March 23, 2017, 11:23:19 AM
How could you imagine "transcendence"?
Anything that puts the person beyond human limits. Ordo Historia refers to them as "something besides simply human" which is a very broad definition. Some easy examples indeed include the civilization merging into one supercomputer but there are other possibilities.
What does a human strive for? Every human wants to achieve a happy life. Some achieve it through the joy of work, others through fame and power, some by pursuing and understanding the unknown. There are probably as many combinations as there are unique people. Reaching transcendence, IMO, is reaching the ultimate happiness and staying in that state indefinitely.
According to Ordo Historia ships have visited these worlds, although some of them "disappeared" (probably destroyed) while others have been turned back, sometimes altering the crew in some ways. Since thre's no FTL travel in RimWorld we can safely assume that even the oldest of the Transcendent Worlds have reached this state hundreds, possibly even a thousand years ago. Yet these worlds don't expand to other systems for resources, effectively limiting themselves. I don't believe that a planet-sized intelligent supercomputer would make such an error as not ensuring material supply for it's growth
unless this is intentional.Let's not forget what happened to the one true AI program we all know about by now: the Mechanoids. Those ones that attack player colonies are sent from "a rogue mechanite hive". An AI doesn't strive for happiness, an AI will probably just try to extend it's processing power and storage capacity indefinitely. These rogue hives have probably destroyed all humanity on the Glitterworld they originate from or have taken total control. The forces the player encounters are probably just surveyor groups, scanning the world's resource richness and probing possible defences to determine whether it's worth it to invade and strip-mine or not. Transcendents would therefore never make true AI's since those will eventually become rogue. Even if they put heavy restrictions, a true AI can and will alter it's existing algorythms as well as write new ones. It's impossible to deny it from breaking free, it's only a matter of time.
Therefore it's more reasonable to think of Transcendent worlds as places where humans have reached full automation. They don't need to do things, they don't have to take care of their needs,
they don't have to think. Imagine a world where every human is kept alive indefinitely, put into eternal bliss for eternity. They reach ultimate happiness, being ignorant of the world around them, while everything is automated and kept working indefinitely by carefully engineered systems and future technology. Let's not forget that any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarke%27s_three_laws) Whether a society agrees to be put into eternal bliss but in return lose part of their humanity is their own decision. Remember, every human ultimately strives for a happy life. However, ultimately every human is selfish. Some more, some less. Even if you give an apple to a starving child, one of the reasons you did it is because
it felt good to help someone. Therefore a society will eventually put their own good above others'. The reason why Transcendent worlds break contact is because they're selfish; they don't want to risk losing their happy state so they won't help out nearby worlds. Some do leave "gifts" to visitors, let it be either a deterrent or a sign of peace. This is why some visiting ships are altered in certain ways and why some are never heard of again.
Why do people assume that "Core Worlds" means galatic core? While some Sci-Fi settings do call them such, most of the time the Core Worlds are the core of whatever Empire/Species is being talked about. I.e their highest developed, highest populated worlds, often times including their homeworld. With the "Rim" not being the galactic Rim but the outer extend of human expansion. I.e the Rim of the space humans have settled so far.
As for "AI" going rogue. First of all it would need to be etablished just how intelligent the AI Hive truly is. Whether it posesses the ability to reproduce units such as Scythers and Centipedes. Pretty much ALL the Robots we've seen are ANCIENT. More often than not they appear to be simple remnants of a conflict long over.
Remember pretty much all the worlds in the game appear to be "fallen" worlds rather than truly be entirely unsettled ones. Basically worlds that were devastated by some kind of conflict long ago. Which means these mechanoid hives aswell as insect hives are "less rogue" than simply "left overs" acting independant because whomever once held control over them simply is not around anymore. With the tribals whom are the most likely to be what is left of said civilizations having regressed so far it is unlikely they could still have any kind of control mechanisms or access codes needed.
For these Mechanoid Hives, we are either trespassers or hostiles being in a place where we really shouldn't be. Possibly still carrying out commands thousands of years old.
For my liking, the 2 documents spend too much time describing things that do not belong on a rimworld.
Quote from: b0rsuk on March 25, 2017, 08:07:54 AM
For my liking, the 2 documents spend too much time describing things that do not belong on a rimworld.
Isn't that the point of background lore? It adds things beyond the game's concept that helps answering some questions regarding the game itself. Like why are orbital traders rare, why do we have mostly the same tech 3500 years in the future, why are there ordinary animals on an alien planet, why do tribals and mechanoids coexist on the same planet etc.
Check out the long sleep revival brief. About half of it describes what rimworld inhabitants are not. You could get an occasional transanimal colonist in an escape pod, or maybe a faction of optibears. But these are mostly on other planets.
I would be more interested about what techniques are commonly used for terraforming, how do the machines or microbes look like or behave. What sorts of technologies are easy to produce on rimworlds, and what not. Not all technological advances need a high level production chain.
As for mechanoids, you can find some tidbits of info in some colonist backgrounds. For example 'spaceship janitor' mentions that such a person takes care of the ship while others are in cryosleep and 'oils the mechanoids'.
Quote from: b0rsuk on March 25, 2017, 11:23:19 AM
Check out the long sleep revival brief. About half of it describes what rimworld inhabitants are not. You could get an occasional transanimal colonist in an escape pod, or maybe a faction of optibears. But these are mostly on other planets.
This is just a case of "you have to know the bad in order to appreciate the good". It's a bit reversed for RimWorld but you get the point, right? Besides, where does that document state that the person it was given to did actually wake up on a Rim World?
Please don't tell me that you have a problem with a document people took their time to make for fun, just because it doesn't contain what you want. :o
Quote from: b0rsuk on March 25, 2017, 11:23:19 AM
I would be more interested about what techniques are commonly used for terraforming, how do the machines or microbes look like or behave.
But that's easy to answer. Magic! Why? Because any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarke%27s_three_laws) Even if there was a thorough description, it would all be pseudoscience bullcrap that's obviously wrong for anyone who knows what it tries to tell. This is a sci-fi game incorporating futuristic technology, you can't explain that technology because it doesn't exist. If I told you that the air-spewing terraforming algae mentioned in the documents were blue, would it make you more satisfied? It's irrelevant information that's sometimes left out intentionally to stimulate the reader's own imagination. Sure, Tynan could take his time and write proper lore but do we want him to waste his precious time with that?
You know what's also like this? Dwarf Fortress. If you have zero capabilities to imagine all the data that's before you, you won't enjoy Dwarf Fortress. Someone sees a "g" next to a smiley, I see an epic battle between an Axelord and a Swordsgoblin.
Or, you can come up with your own ideas for those technologies and add it to the lore!
Quote from: b0rsuk on March 25, 2017, 11:23:19 AM
What sorts of technologies are easy to produce on rimworlds, and what not. Not all technological advances need a high level production chain.
Wait, what? That's already there! Read the documents again, maybe you've missed it or something.
Quote from: b0rsuk on March 25, 2017, 11:23:19 AM
As for mechanoids, you can find some tidbits of info in some colonist backgrounds. For example 'spaceship janitor' mentions that such a person takes care of the ship while others are in cryosleep and 'oils the mechanoids'.
It probably would be best if someone took the effort and went through all the backstories to gather additional lore information. Don't look at me, I have other things to do.
The thrust is in the micronewtons, but the "EM drive" ("RF resonant cavity thruster (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RF_resonant_cavity_thruster)" apparently DOES work, and requires *no* propellant. Yes, really, it's been pretty soundly proven by repeated experiments, although there's still a bunch of controversy.
Nothin' stopping you from stapling a LOT of these together, either, if you want more delta-V. As long as you have a power source, it simply works. No moving parts to wear out, either, I'll note. It would, however, be useless at the very bottom of large gravity wells, so it's also *not* a launch vehicle.
Whenever you notice something like that... a wizard did it.
Waving away all consistency "because it's all basically just magic" is a good way to end up with science fantasy (or space opera). I would prefer Rimworld to be closer to science fiction. A scientific approach to science fiction is to make some fantastic substitutions (like "time travel exists", or "FTL travels exists", but extrapolating from that in a logical manner. Fantasy doesn't care about that, it explains inconsistencies with another made up thing.
Quote from: b0rsuk on March 25, 2017, 03:09:29 PM
Waving away all consistency "because it's all basically just magic" is a good way to end up with science fantasy (or space opera). I would prefer Rimworld to be closer to science fiction. A scientific approach to science fiction is to make some fantastic substitutions (like "time travel exists", or "FTL travels exists", but extrapolating from that in a logical manner. Fantasy doesn't care about that, it explains inconsistencies with another made up thing.
Point taken. So, since we've mentioned propulsion several times already, how about coming up an idea for that first?
We need something that can travel at ~30-40% c speed average. If we take into consideration the engines we can build for our spacecraft in-game, what could it possibly be?
Since the EM Drive might not actually work (https://np.reddit.com/r/Physics/comments/5ewj86/so_nasas_em_drive_paper_is_officially_published/dafqhw2/) let's say that it does and it can be miniaturized enough so that the energy required for leaving orbit isn't crippling (obviously talking about the extra mass of EM drives, not using EM drives for leaving orbit, that would be beyond fantasy). So these miniaturized EM drives could be built-in in those huge engines we see in-game, while most of the engine is solid/liquid rocket fuel plus engine required to enter/exit orbit. However, even if we have miniaturized EM drives, I doubt we could reach ~30-40% c levels of average speed. Remember, if EM drives would work in this case, it would go like this:
- EM Drive steadily accelerates.
- Ship is halfway to it's deatination. EM Drive stops.
- EM Drive steadily decelerates.
Since EM Drives would output a constant acceleration value, that would mean a top speed close to ~60-80% of c which is pretty damn high in a universe where FTL travel is supposed to be impossible and considering the spacecraft has "only" ~800-900 years for each acceleration and deceleration phase (based on data we already know from the lore documents), that's nigh impossible unless we take into consideration some form of extreme, outright fantasy miniaturisation which has no trace whatsoever in-game anyway.
So... any other ideas?
I'm probably a complete piece of garbage for watching my own thread, but not replying to it. I wanted to see exactly how people interpreted what I said before I got into anything further. Granitecosmos seems to understand what I am trying to do here. I am trying to get the community to add to the lore, and if we are satisfied with the end product, we run it over to suggestions where Tynan or the other really happy guy who's name I can't seem to recall at the moment, can take a look at it and do what they will with said information.
I will propose a variety of things now, some in the realm of science-fiction, some in the realm of science-fantasy. I am taking some liberties with some of the things I will be posting here, and would like some feedback on what I am writing down. I will be following five rules whilst "creating" some of these technologies and solutions, and would ask that those who wish to contribute to follow the same rules. Not mandatory, as I don't really care as long as we are contributing ideas to one another.
1. Keep it interesting.
2. Stretching a current scientific theory can be played with.
3. Have fun, be creative, but stay somewhat realistic.
4. Nothing can go at, or faster than, the speed of light.
How do we get from Point A to Point B?
I had some fun with this one, and it may also explain why crashes are so common. Follow with me as best you can, as I combine a few ideas together here, for maximum fun. My method for achieving maximum velocity is simple, I cannot do the math on it, as it is far beyond my realm of understanding, however you might get what I mean. Highly theoretical stuff going on here, but not disproven (yet!).
Combining both the Oberth Effect, and the theoretical Aerogravity Assist, in addition to the primary engine being one of the anti-matter variety. The general function would work as follows, an asterisk will denote times when failure of a flight is relatively high.
1. Ship departs using chemical rockets to escape gravity.
2. Chemical rockets are shed, falling back to the planet.
3. Human crew activates the A.I., shuts down all non-critical systems, and buckles up for the long-sleep.
4. A.I. takes over command of the ship, and proceeds to chart a course to the desired destination.
5. Ship approaches the local star, gaining velocity for the gravity assist.
6. Upon reaching maximum speed gained, the anti-matter rocket lights off in a pulse-jet fashion, this allows for maximum velocity to be attained for system exit, the anti-pulse jet then continues to fire until a velocity of .05c-.15 is reached.
7. A.I. calculates the location of an ideal harvest-ground to acquire additional anti-matter, this is typically in the Van Allen belts of planets with magnetic fields. (Gas giants are ideal for this.)
8. Upon approach to the harvest ground, the A.I. prepares to compensate for another Oberth maneuver, whilst "collecting" anti-matter (using a method that I have yet to think of, given the speeds involved.)
9. Oberth maneuver executed, and additional anti-matter is collected, while the anti-matter pulse jets fire, allowing additional velocity, this is done with as many planets in a system as the A.I. considers possible. Allowing for the maximum velocity to be reached. (Variable, ideally .30c-.40c)
10. Interstellar travel.
11. System approach expected, A.I. analyses system, and given the data acquired, extrapolates a flight-path to the ideal location. At this point, the ships speed is mostly unchanged, and the A.I. will bleed speed through various reverse-oberths, and aerogravity assists when possible, using the outer atmosphere of a planet to provide lift, and drag slowing the ship.* (Imagine a stone skipping on water. Where the stone is a ship, and the water is this atmosphere.) The ship, once reaching a targeted velocity, will depart to it's intended destination, or will land. Occasionally, the ship is torn to pieces by the extreme forces involved in some aerogravity assists.
The next question is why would humanity use a system so prone to failure?
My solution is in the following, in 2100AD when humanity first left the Sol System, it was due to extreme resource starvation. Humanity had to depart, or die. This method allowed for acceptable speeds from system to system, but also resulted in a system that was somewhat flawed in that not all ships would make it to their final destination. Perhaps better methods were devised later, but given the separation and diffusion of humanity, this remains the most common system.
Why does this fit with game mechanics so well?
Traders come and go, perhaps using the aerogravity method to slow down in preparation for a different maneuver, and in that brief window until the desired speeds are reached, they are open to trade, when the desired speed is reached, they depart. This would also explain the core concept of RimWorld which is ship crashing onto planets.
Some of these people don't actually make it, some die from being burned alive in a gas-giants atmosphere, or from being spaced when the ship rips itself apart, some happen to land on perfectly habitable planets. These are the lucky ones, these are our pawns. The A.I. sensing failure of the hull would immediately awaken the crew to eject them.
Sometimes they get ejected over nice rimworlds.
Sometimes they get ejected into a blazing atmosphere the hellish likes of cannot even be spoken of here.
All their family died long ago.
Nobody alive knows them.
They are forgotten.
Tell me what you think! Feedback is appreciated as always, guys!
I know my formatting is garbage. I tried though, I swear!
Could the anti-matter fuel be fired in the path of the ships by relativistic rail guns, decades before the launch? Because there wouldn't be a crew, they could be accelerated very quickly using an anti-matter explosion (effectively, a giant musket). The same couldn't be done for the crewed ship as they would be turned into soup.
The fuel would travel slightly slower than the ship at whatever stage of the journey the two would meet, allowing the ship to refuel at relativistic speeds. I've seen this theory before but with a ramscoop propulsion system and the fuel being hydrogen, which seems a lot more practical than antimatter. The fuel needs to be already traveling at relativistic speeds in order to decrease the 'drag' a conventional ramscoop would create when harvesting background hydrogen.
I don't see how the ship could harvest anti-matter from a stellar body without slowing down.
Quote from: Bozobub on March 25, 2017, 01:36:47 PM
The thrust is in the micronewtons, but the "EM drive" ("RF resonant cavity thruster (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RF_resonant_cavity_thruster)" apparently DOES work, and requires *no* propellant. Yes, really, it's been pretty soundly proven by repeated experiments, although there's still a bunch of controversy.
Nothin' stopping you from stapling a LOT of these together, either, if you want more delta-V. As long as you have a power source, it simply works. No moving parts to wear out, either, I'll note. It would, however, be useless at the very bottom of large gravity wells, so it's also *not* a launch vehicle.
The issue with this is that it doesn't seem to work; we have observed data that seems like it's working but we can't reproduce it consistently. It seems to violate conservation of momentum; it's like pushing yourself on the back to make you go forward, or pulling your own hand.
I'm not blindly following Newtonian physics, but if this EM drive works then we'd need to rethink our current understanding of the universe.
First of all, remember that humanity is spanned across 1.200 LY. So don't forget that:
Quote from: Granitecosmos on March 23, 2017, 10:15:48 AM
...the slowest way we can reach this distance is with a spacecraft launched in 2100 AD that travels 3400 years at the speed of ~52900 km/s, roughly 17,6% of the speed of light.
That is the average speed during the whole flight. The closer we go to c the more energy it requires to accelerate further. This effectively defines the top speed of an engine, based on the propellant and energy required.
So let's say that a spacecraft launches from Earth and takes half the distance which is 300 LY (since the Sol system is probably the center of the 1.200 LY human-inhabited space since it's the origin point, it's "only" 600 LY to reach the edge from there) and decides to colonize the target planet there.
This means they'll waste time with hundreds of years of colonizing before they reach the stage of being able to send a spaceship themselves that can continue the tradition. It's highly unlikely that every and all spaceship was sent from Earth, after all. So our spaceships already have to reach a top speed higher than 17,6% c, in fact, probably more like 20-80% of c all depending on acceleration as well as considering more than one stop to build a colony. That 3400 years we have is pretty damn low for that 600 LY considering additional colonizing and sub-FTL speed.
If the spaceship has to periodically stop in order to extract fuel for the engine the required time to reach the destination further increases. Therefore it's safe to say that:
- Spaceships probably won't travel to targets more than 100 LY away at once. They stop, build a colony which either destroys itself or continues the tradition of sending a spaceship to colonize a not-too-far-away target.
- Interstellar engines are very fuel-efficient or don't need fuel at all. They don't stop for refueling.
This further implies why Rim Worlds are so dystopian; that they are in less star-dense locations. This would also support my theory that the human-inhabited space is like an ellipsoid, expanding quicker in the star-dense central areas of the galaxy arm.
If we want to keep to realism a bit then I can't help but notice:
Quote from: CiceroThePoet on March 25, 2017, 11:36:56 PM
Ship departs using chemical rockets to escape gravity.
Chemical rockets are shed, falling back to the planet.
First one implies the antimatter engine is not suitable for "low-speed" maneuvers. Latter implies the crew is doomed as with the engine, they shed their only option to safely land the ship on the surface of another planet too. Periodic stops for fuel would also be out of question without precise maneuverability.
Quote from: CiceroThePoet on March 25, 2017, 11:36:56 PM
Ship approaches the local star, gaining velocity for the gravity assist.
Upon reaching maximum speed gained, the anti-matter rocket lights off in a pulse-jet fashion, this allows for maximum velocity to be attained for system exit, the anti-pulse jet then continues to fire until a velocity of .05c-.15 is reached.
Now, I understand what you want to say here but it's just impractical. When your engine can easily reach 5-15% of c, the extra speed you gain from the gravity assist of
any of the stars we know about (including RW Cepheli and friends) wouldn't mean jack shit and would only waste your time. You need a close supernova explosion to reach ~1% c velocity, gravity assists won't do anything unless it's a black hole or a neutron star, both being extremely dangerous for such maneuvers and reaching them alone wouldn't be feasible in such low timeframe unless you have sufficiently fast engines to begin with. See Dyson slingshot (http://www.centauri-dreams.org/?p=25605) for more info.
Quote from: CiceroThePoet on March 25, 2017, 11:36:56 PM
...Allowing for the maximum velocity to be reached. (Variable, ideally .30c-.40c)...
...System approach expected, A.I. analyses system, and given the data acquired, extrapolates a flight-path to the ideal location. At this point, the ships speed is mostly unchanged, and the A.I. will bleed speed through various reverse-oberths, and aerogravity assists when possible, using the outer atmosphere of a planet to provide lift, and drag slowing the ship.* (Imagine a stone skipping on water. Where the stone is a ship, and the water is this atmosphere.) The ship, once reaching a targeted velocity, will depart to it's intended destination, or will land. Occasionally, the ship is torn to pieces by the extreme forces involved in some aerogravity assists.
This isn't "prone to failure", this is literally suicide. At the speed of 30-40% c you'll pass by stars' gravity wells in a way that even if you pass directly by the star all you'd achieve is slightly turning your ship in that direction. Slowing down is out of question. Aerobraking with speeds commonly used by spacecrafts today is already risky, imagine aerobraking with even 0.01% c (a.k.a. 30.000 km/s), that has zero percent survival rate! Furthermore, aerogravity assist is NOT used to slow down, it's used to change direction. Thre is no other way but to fire the retro-antimatter engines which boosted you to 30-40% c at the first place. Just make sure you start decelerating in time unless you want to spend another year or decade correcting your maneuver. Also, 30-40% c maximum speed is simply not adequate, unless you speak of a ship that starts from Earth and stops after 300 LY of travel. But according to the documents, colonies are being established at 20-50 LY distances or less. As I've said, if you incorporate periodic stops as well as colonization in your journey it will increase travel time exponentially.
So, how to fix it? First off, the fundamental problem is that we have a 600 LY distance to be traveled in 3400 years, along with many, many stops for establishing colonies. This is borderline impossible without FTL travel, unless we come up with a bullshit engine that can reach 99% c max speed AND reach that very fast. Even if we come up with, say, something like "early prototypes from 2100 were bad, yes, but Glitter Worlds have vastly improved the technology", we still have to get to Glitter tech first. Imagine a ship made in 2100 that travels 20 LY with an average speed of 20% c. The travel time is 100 years, we have 3300 more. Now add, let's say, 500 more years for terraforming and reaching Glitter tech levels. We have 2800 more. Let's say that they come up with an engine that can run at 80% c. So now they also send out a spaceshit to a target 30 LY away. Travel time is 37,5 years. Colony establishment and terraforming is another ~100. Let's say that they finish building up the new Glitter World in an additional 50 years, ready to send a starship. So now we're at 2612.5 years remaining to jump an additional 550 LY distance. Remember, spaceships will ALWAYS be sent to the closest and most promising targets possible. It's just logical. The problem is, that developing a planet to the point that said planet's population starts to consider building expensive ships to colonize other worlds, decades of years away both for communication and travel, takes time. This takes the most time out of all, probably more than traveling between stars.
3400 years is simply not enough for 600 LY when the documents tell us of worlds being as close as 20-50 LY or even closer. Either increase the time or decrease the distance. ~400 LY radius could be feasible, would still incorporate some of the local galaxy arm's less dense regions but anything lower than that would effectively destroy the concept of Rim Worlds.
Quote from: BeastNips on March 26, 2017, 08:51:25 AM
The issue with this is that it doesn't seem to work; we have observed data that seems like it's working but we can't reproduce it consistently.
Exactly, like I've already pointed out, the EM Drive might not even work. As far as I know, tests in orbit are planned, might shed some light on this. Although I'm highly sceptical about it.
However, we can't have proper sci-fi without
some science fantasy. Quantum vacuum thrusters (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_vacuum_thruster) are an intresting subject, whether it works or not. It also implies a positive feedback during acceleration, while decelerating would probably be harder exactly because of that.
But then again, I'm not a rocket scientist/physician/astronomer.
What bothers me a bit is that so many people dislike the premise of the game - that this is a Rimworld, a backwater planet. There are countless mods which add high-tech gizmos, but are there any which put emphasis on the remote, rugged part ? Many players really want to play Glitterworld.
I think we should look at our own world for influences. In some ways, Rimworld is like a third world country. And these countries are affected by progress in surprising ways. For example, poor African countries lack good telephone lines, power lines, plumbing, healthcare, stationary computers, laptops... but they often have wifi internet access via cell phones ! I remember reading about boys earned money by charging cell phones with stationary bikes. Then there are corrupt warlords. That's what you get without strong central government.
Soviets dumped many old tanks and combat vehicles in Africa to fight a proxy war. Tanks are notorious for needing lots of maintenance. The end result is tank graveyards. We should find something like that on rimworlds.
Look what technology, what devices are available in third world countries. What their societies look like. Draw parallels to Rimworld and try to extrapolate from there.
Quote from: b0rsuk on March 26, 2017, 02:27:22 PM
What bothers me a bit is that so many people dislike the premise of the game - that this is a Rimworld, a backwater planet. There are countless mods which add high-tech gizmos, but are there any which put emphasis on the remote, rugged part ? Many players really want to play Glitterworld.
I think we should look at our own world for influences. In some ways, Rimworld is like a third world country. And these countries are affected by progress in surprising ways. For example, poor African countries lack good telephone lines, power lines, plumbing, healthcare, stationary computers, laptops... but they often have wifi internet access via cell phones ! I remember reading about boys earned money by charging cell phones with stationary bikes. Then there are corrupt warlords. That's what you get without strong central government.
Soviets dumped many old tanks and combat vehicles in Africa to fight a proxy war. Tanks are notorious for needing lots of maintenance. The end result is tank graveyards. We should find something like that on rimworlds.
Look what technology, what devices are available in third world countries. What their societies look like. Draw parallels to Rimworld and try to extrapolate from there.
This, but let's not forget that 3rd world countries have one problem that Rim Worlds definitely don't. Overpopulation. Rim Worlds were described in the documents as sparsely populated.
Raiders are pretty much warlords already.
I like to imagine Rim Worlds as a dystopian post-nuclear-apocalypse world. Except for the radiation and extinction of most flora and fauna. In the Fallout universe there are tribes, raiders and larger communities too, coexisting while often representing vastly different technological levels. It has a lot of things that resembles Rim Worlds.
QuoteExactly, like I've already pointed out, the EM Drive might not even work. As far as I know, tests in orbit are planned, might shed some light on this. Although I'm highly sceptical about it.
However, we can't have proper sci-fi without some science fantasy. Quantum vacuum thrusters are an intresting subject, whether it works or not. It also implies a positive feedback during acceleration, while decelerating would probably be harder exactly because of that.
But then again, I'm not a rocket scientist/physician/astronomer.
If you're familiar with Alistair Reynold's novels then that seems to be what he proposes in his 'Conjoiner Drive' engines. However, being a physicist and wanting to stick to 'hard' sci-fi, he is never too specific. In his books, these engines have the power to accelerate a 4-5km long ship to 99%+C in 1-2 years. I really recommend his work if you're into your hard sci-fi.
Quote from: Granitecosmos link=topic=31279.msg321247#msg321247
I like to imagine Rim Worlds as a dystopian post-nuclear-apocalypse world. Except for the radiation and extinction of most flora and fauna. In the Fallout universe there are tribes, raiders and larger communities too, coexisting while often representing vastly different technological levels. It has a lot of things that resembles Rim Worlds.
And this .. I always pictured the main construction materials being
Wire, Chewing Gum and Spit. And Duct Tape being a highly priced commodity.
Also Warhammer 40k's STC ( standard template construct ) is always the first thing that comes to my mind when things like construction or research are discussed.
In the timeframe colonisation is shown in RW things like resupply and waves of settlers are measured in generations.
A few books by Ursula Le Guin have an ansible, a device which allows sending faster-than-light messages. As far as I remember FTL travel is still not possible, but communication is. Hybrid approach. But if that's possible, why not teleportation ? Depending on your philosophy, teleportation can be as simple as 3D-printing a human. As long as you're comfortable with the fact you are destroyed and your exact copy is created somewhere else.
* * *
If Rimworlds are so distant, how do glittertech devices end up on them anyway ? There are artifacts in danger rooms, but bionic body parts ? Glittertech medicine ? Where do they come from ? A glitterworld in the same solar system ?
Quote from: b0rsuk on March 26, 2017, 05:59:14 PM
A few books by Ursula Le Guin have an ansible, a device which allows sending faster-than-light messages. As far as I remember FTL travel is still not possible, but communication is.
Quoted from the RimWorld Universe Quick Timer:
"In the RimWorld universe, it takes years or decades to travel or communicate between stars."
So that's not gonna work. The lore of RimWorld says Einstein was right. Therefore every and all particle has
some mass. Also, this means photons are the best you can get and even those will take years, possibly decades to reach the target.
Quote from: b0rsuk on March 26, 2017, 05:59:14 PM
Depending on your philosophy, teleportation can be as simple as 3D-printing a human. As long as you're comfortable with the fact you are destroyed and your exact copy is created somewhere else.
But without FTL information flow this doesn't make things any easier either.
Quote from: b0rsuk on March 26, 2017, 05:59:14 PM
If Rimworlds are so distant, how do glittertech devices end up on them anyway ? There are artifacts in danger rooms, but bionic body parts ? Glittertech medicine ? Where do they come from ? A glitterworld in the same solar system ?
Just because
this particular RimWorld has such it doesn't mean all are like this. I believe the RimWorld the game takes place on was actually a Glitter World that blew itself back to the stone age for whatever reason. The tribals, outlanders and even the raiders are all more-or-less descendants of the original population. Different people, different lifestyles. Maybe the first tribals remembered that technology caused the downfall of their world and have chosen the primitive ways. Hundreds of years later, the current generation doesn't even remember these reasons anymore, they just live their lives in the way their ancestors did, abhorring technolog the way their ancestors did. This would also explain why it's hard to recruit tribals when you don't play as a tribal faction yourself.
Of course one may ask the question:
If this is such a specific RimWorld, how comes the game can generate so many of it via the vast combination of seeds? The answer is easier than it seems.
Let's say that this is always the same planet. The place is the same, the time too but everything else can be different; because this is just another universe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation). The game conveniently picks one where this world evolved to Glitter tech, blew itself back to the stone age, fell into a dystopian state like many others, got classified as a Rim World, then exactly at the year 5500 a spaceship passing by is destroyed by any means and three survivors successfully land on the planet. Or five tribespeople survive a mechanoid raid and flee, trying to find a new home. Or one rich guy's ship blows up but he gets to the surface safely. Or <insertCustomScenarioHere>. Due to the many worlds interpretation the possibilities are literally endless.
Bam, lore AND game mechanic explained.
Quote from: b0rsuk on March 26, 2017, 05:59:14 PM
If Rimworlds are so distant, how do glittertech devices end up on them anyway ? There are artifacts in danger rooms, but bionic body parts ? Glittertech medicine ? Where do they come from ? A glitterworld in the same solar system ?
Where do you think all that compacted steel and components came from?
You're standing on what *was* a glitterworld, before they started flinging gigaton antimatter bombs around 1,000 years ago. The survivors crawled out of their holes and started making bows to hunt the animals that escaped the zoos...
And all these glittertech devices they sell in perfect condition ? Naaaah. They look manufactured and transported from a glitterworld.
Quote from: b0rsuk on March 27, 2017, 03:27:09 PM
And all these glittertech devices they sell in perfect condition ? Naaaah. They look manufactured and transported from a glitterworld.
In the Revelation Space universe interstellar travel is limited to sub-light speed, like Rimworld, leading to technologically regressive cultures. This doesn't tend to happen to the same extent as Rimworld, but you get cultures with 'Glittertech' which tends to be anti-matter, nano-technology etc; then you get cultures which have to simply do their best with technology of a similar level to our current technology.
These regressive cultures have a scattering of Glitter tech that is either old because it was left over from whatever ship brought them to the planet originally (ships are crewed by a 'race' [modified humans] called Ultras which control most interstellar travel and trade and as a result tend to be technologically advanced) or by whatever is traded by traveling trade ships and it can be months, years or several decades between ships. This leads to huge disparities in levels of technology as well as how aged said technology is. I wouldn't be surprised if Rimworlds were in similar situations, especially given that in the game you tend to get passing trade ships infrequently as well as uncovering 'old' technology.
Orbital traders are still relatively common and they clearly come from other planets. They even have names like Orange Horse Corporation, and rimworld is no place for a corporation.
Quote from: b0rsuk on March 28, 2017, 07:46:33 AM
Orbital traders are still relatively common and they clearly come from other planets. They even have names like Orange Horse Corporation, and rimworld is no place for a corporation.
Yes that's what I mean. I wouldn't call them uncommon, maybe infrequent? It would lead to a variety of glitter-tech, some of which is old, some of which is new.
I think "lore" fans should do something useful and explain why trade ships are not good enough to leave the planet (win condition). You can't say they only have cargo holds, because they buy slaves and animals. You can't say they only deliver goods, because they buy various items and not just take silver.
The reason why the trader's not good enough for a win condition:
Quote from: b0rsuk on March 28, 2017, 02:59:11 PM
they buy slaves
:D
Seriously, I wouldn't trust my safety and freedom to a ship under someone else's control (in a cryptosleep thing you'd be especially vulnerable).
What I'm saying is that rimworlds are visited by spaceships capable of transporting humans. These spaceships are capable of interstellar travel. It must be possible to either make an arrangement to leave the planet, or hijack a ship.
Quote from: OFWG on March 28, 2017, 05:25:40 PM
The reason why the trader's not good enough for a win condition:
Quote from: b0rsuk on March 28, 2017, 02:59:11 PM
they buy slaves
The problem is...... the characters already did this. What is to prevent them from doing so again?
:D
Seriously, I wouldn't trust my safety and freedom to a ship under someone else's control (in a cryptosleep thing you'd be especially vulnerable).
Quote from: OFWG on March 28, 2017, 05:25:40 PM
The reason why the trader's not good enough for a win condition:
Quote from: b0rsuk on March 28, 2017, 02:59:11 PM
they buy slaves
:D
Seriously, I wouldn't trust my safety and freedom to a ship under someone else's control (in a cryptosleep thing you'd be especially vulnerable).
Stupid argument, because only one kind of ship does, and all ships can transport humans.
Quote from: b0rsuk on March 29, 2017, 03:52:22 AM
Quote from: OFWG on March 28, 2017, 05:25:40 PM
The reason why the trader's not good enough for a win condition:
Quote from: b0rsuk on March 28, 2017, 02:59:11 PM
they buy slaves
:D
Seriously, I wouldn't trust my safety and freedom to a ship under someone else's control (in a cryptosleep thing you'd be especially vulnerable).
Stupid argument, because only one kind of ship does, and all ships can transport humans.
These trader ships travel for several decades just to reach another solar system. Some traders' chronological age might be over a thousand. They've seen many things. Your average Rim World human is a savage caveman in comparison, would you gladly share your living quarters with savage cavemen just because they told you they're different? Even if they paid you, what's the guarantee that these savages won't just kill you and take over?
Quote from: Granitecosmos on March 29, 2017, 05:05:56 AM
Quote from: b0rsuk on March 29, 2017, 03:52:22 AM
Quote from: OFWG on March 28, 2017, 05:25:40 PM
The reason why the trader's not good enough for a win condition:
Quote from: b0rsuk on March 28, 2017, 02:59:11 PM
they buy slaves
:D
Seriously, I wouldn't trust my safety and freedom to a ship under someone else's control (in a cryptosleep thing you'd be especially vulnerable).
Stupid argument, because only one kind of ship does, and all ships can transport humans.
These trader ships travel for several decades just to reach another solar system. Some traders' chronological age might be over a thousand. They've seen many things. Your average Rim World human is a savage caveman in comparison, would you gladly share your living quarters with savage cavemen just because they told you they're different? Even if they paid you, what's the guarantee that these savages won't just kill you and take over?
Because the still have their Glitterworld XY-ID Chip ?
Quote from: SpaceDorf on March 29, 2017, 05:43:59 AM
Because the still have their Glitterworld XY-ID Chip ?
Spending years on the Rim World can easily change people, usually the wrong way. ID chips can be stolen and hacked. Nothing is failsafe on a Rim World. We got old Glitter tech that coexists with tribals, don't forget that.
It's simply not worth it from the trader's perspective. Besides, every extra passenger would need another Cryptosleep Pod, unless they want to spend the next decade or so in the cargo bay along with supplies that probably won't last more than half a year. And then they'd have to pay for the damage too... Nope. Not gonna happen.
Simple. You only ever call them to trade.
Tynan also had a rather clever quote at one time regarding African fishing trawlers and a ride to Los Angeles as well.
Though I'd wager that the type of person that would routinely plough the path between the stars is likely not the most social individual.
"Damn it! I hate being woken within a couple lightyears of a Damn Rimworld. The Damn AI blasts the local excuse for music at full volume all the time!