Devilstrand seems really interesting because of its properties, but I was surprised at how un-economical it is to grow. 45 days is a super long time, especially with eclipses. And while hydroponics cut the grow time in half, solar flares make this approach unreliable.
I had thought that Devilstrand might be more valuable, since thankfully it seems Tynaan took time to make sure blights don't affect it. But when it comes to trading, assuming you got your crop through the 50 day mark, Devilstrand cloth doesn't sell for much. Though cotton and other plants sell for less, their turnover is significantly higher and yield a lot more overall.
Anyways, I did a quick run of the numbers just to make sure I wasn't doing something wrong (let me know if I'm missing something). You can see best case yield scenario, cotton is still much much more profitable.
I'm having a hard time justifying planting any devilstrand since buying it is just so much more economical.(http://i.imgur.com/6ROmC2s.png)
Has anyone had more success in cultivating Devilstrand?
Been doing my own testing too, and no, devilstrand is not really worth growing for money. Cotton is the crop to go for if you want to grow to sell. Growing devilstrand is only useful early on if you're impatient about getting your colonists clothes upgraded. I'm not too worried though, I'm sure devilstrand may have more uses in some future version. I agree that 45 days is a bit extreme though. x3
Yeah, devilstrand is somewhat imbalanced. I think it should be made more expensive.
I agree the first thing I grew was devil strand and it still isn't done
You should note that cotton is more time-efficient, but it also takes more labor. Devilstrand can be planted in a distant plot and ignored until harvest, cotton must be visited and harvested and hauled and replanted several times, which adds costs.
Quote from: Tynan on October 05, 2014, 05:47:09 PM
You should note that cotton is more time-efficient, but it also takes more labor. Devilstrand can be planted in a distant plot and ignored until harvest, cotton must be visited and harvested and hauled and replanted several times, which adds costs.
Exactly. Planting a massive field of this stuff in an isolated or far away field is a pretty good idea. I did the same and then walled out the entire area in order to protect it against fires. They grew, i profited, and all it took was 2 days of labor to plant all that stuff. ^^
I'll also add that Devilstrand actually makes clothes that are semi effective armor, though I'd wish it wasn't the best 'material' that we could make clothes out of, I also wish that we could make our own dusters instead of just Hats, pants, and shirts. :(
Quote from: Zsword on October 06, 2014, 12:12:51 AM
I'll also add that Devilstrand actually makes clothes that are semi effective armor, though I'd wish it wasn't the best 'material' that we could make clothes out of, I also wish that we could make our own dusters instead of just Hats, pants, and shirts. :(
YES I need to make muh dusters, this has to go in next alpha (Or Hotfix, if tynan loves us :)
Since I'm personally wanting more uses (preferably permanent uses) for the research skill I must say I would like to see a system where you used your researcher to study items to unlock them, like studying a Duster would unlock the ability to replicate a duster at the textile bench.
Quote from: Zsword on October 06, 2014, 12:12:51 AM
I'll also add that Devilstrand actually makes clothes that are semi effective armor, though I'd wish it wasn't the best 'material' that we could make clothes out of, I also wish that we could make our own dusters instead of just Hats, pants, and shirts. :(
This combined with its ease of growth means it probably
shouldn't be a good cash crop as well.
Otherwise what would be the point of cotton? If it's less valuable, more labor intensive to grow, and worse as a material, why would you bother growing it? Cotton as a cash crop and bulk crafting material while devilstrand is a more useful but specialist plant makes sense to me.
Cotton should definitely be worth less than the goods you make of it.
has anybody that has grown devilstrand actually had a use for it once it was grown? ie. needed it for armour because you didn't have enough by that time?
Quote from: Geokinesis on October 06, 2014, 03:23:11 PM
Cotton should definitely be worth less than the goods you make of it.
Very true! It is, all things considered, a refinement to tailor cloth into a shirt. Labor that needn't be done elsewhere. Thus the base value of all items should be input+. Right now I sell off the cloth and make useless hats out of leather, because I can't sell leather to a merchant. Don't know if pants or shirts would be more lucrative. I'd like to see an expansion on the chain though. Cotton -> Cloth -> Stuff. Hide -> Leather -> Stuff.
Concerning Dusters: Tynan has given us the basics. I sure would have loved button down shirts over T-Shirts. But couldn't other apparel items be modded in?
Quote from: thestalkinghead on October 06, 2014, 03:29:48 PM
has anybody that has grown devilstrand actually had a use for it once it was grown? ie. needed it for armour because you didn't have enough by that time?
I did, I still needed 4 shirts and 7 hats. (Which I have been slowly replacing the hats with Power Armor.) after my first harvest.
By the by. If you wanna grow your own Devil, DON'T use Hydro basins. The odds of a Solar Flare or Eclipse/Battery Bomb destroying the Hydro plots usability is just toooo high.
I will say, Hyperweave is over priced and is over all inferior to Devilstrand. By this point I'm 85% certain that R4 Charge Rifles and Charge Lances and the Charge Miniguns deal Electricity damage, which Hyper doesn't provide resistance to but Devil does. I'm not factoring in Pierce damage cause the only 'threatening' Pierce weapons I find are M24s, which I feel are only threatening on headshots, which you're gonna have Power Armor for. *shrug*
QuoteCotton should definitely be worth less than the goods you make of it.
Yeah, I think both cotton pants and shirts sell in the low 20s. The cost of the cotton used to make clothing is approximately 100 (2*50), so it's better to just sell plain cotton.
The same's even more true for devilstrand, which sells in the low 80s. The cost of material for that is roughly 1000 (20*50). Even if you plan on using devilstrand to make your own protective clothing, you're throwing away around 900 gold every time you do so. IIRC you could buy at least two articles of Devilstrand clothing at that price (not to mention raid loot).
Quote from: REMworlder on October 06, 2014, 05:21:51 PM
QuoteCotton should definitely be worth less than the goods you make of it.
Yeah, I think both cotton pants and shirts sell in the low 20s. The cost of the cotton used to make clothing is approximately 100 (2*50), so it's better to just sell plain cotton.
The same's even more true for devilstrand, which sells in the low 80s. The cost of material for that is roughly 1000 (20*50). Even if you plan on using devilstrand to make your own protective clothing, you're throwing away around 900 gold every time you do so. IIRC you could buy at least two articles of Devilstrand clothing at that price (not to mention raid loot).
so basically farming is still the best (non violent) way of making money, that kinda sucks, i feel like manufacturing things that need research should be more profitable than basic things you start off with
Devilstrand is definitely worthwhile if you have a small colony, since not only does it not require constant harvesting, but also 1/10th the amount of hauling that cotton of an equal value would take.
Just plant a large enough area, and eventually you have enough devilstrand for 60k silver, without constantly tying up your growers and haulers with cotton.
Yeah, this is not the main point of the topic, but shirts/hats/etc. should sell for more than the materials they have been made from. I have noticed it today and I don't like it.
Quote from: stefanstr on October 06, 2014, 06:43:56 PM
Yeah, this is not the main point of the topic, but shirts/hats/etc. should sell for more than the materials they have been made from. I have noticed it today and I don't like it.
i agree, going slightly off topic, i think you should be able to buy raw materials (everything eventually) then manufacture them into something and still make a profit, let alone making the raw materials yourself
It was probably a conscious decision on the devs part. I'd be interested in the reasoning.
i think it's 'coz the final product (apparel) can just be looted off corpses, while the raw mushroom itself takes ages to grow.
Hmm.. one possible explanation is that the raw devilstrand has more profitable uses than the clothing we currently can use it for which keeps it's price high while the clothing itself has better or cheaper alternatives to compete with. Or the traders aren't afraid of being scuzzy to stranded rimworlders with extra clothing to sell.
Well, if the clothes took only 10 pieces of fabric to make, then the price for the raw fabrics and clothes would at least be comparable. So if anything where to be changed, I'd prefer that to be changed first.
I'm gonna change price calculations in A8 to make more reasonable prices for apparel.
As long as player allowed to get best armor\weapon in game by single m24 shot balance of devilstrand is not main issue.
Player allowed to farm food only and never trade, but still can get best armor and weapons in game from loot.
In case of augmented raiders (not yet implemented but perfectly possible in next versions) - able to get them alive and cut bionic parts for his personal use.
ammo for weapons and armor degradation will fix issue (NOTE: there is no reason to implement both ammo and degradation for weapons, just as no reason to implement different types of ammo for same weapon or "personal" ammo for each weapon)
player will be allowed to get power armor (in very poor condition as long as raider not killed by single headshot) and powerful weapon.
But this wont allow player to constantly use such items, since powerful weapons require lots of ammo and armor require lots of hitech component for repair.
Such situation will force player to conserve ammo ever for basic guns and use melee weapons or neolitic "guns" for hunting and easy threats.
This will make system challenging "by design" since player forced to make decisions that may have effects much later.
Armor degradation is an intriguing idea but I don't think this thread is the right place to discuss it. Maybe you could start a new suggestion thread to see if other people like it?
Btw, I noticed rich soil now shortens the growth time of stuff, reducing the growth time of devilstrand from 45 days to around 37 days.
Growth time (of anything) depends on fertility. Rich Soil plants grow faster because it has higher fertility. Hydroponics has the highest fertility, so things grow even faster. I think the wiki has details on this.
When was the soil system introduced? Didnt notice it before alpha 7
Quote from: Panzer on October 15, 2014, 05:46:03 AM
When was the soil system introduced? Didnt notice it before alpha 7
I have joined at Alpha 6 and it was already there.
That's been around for quite a while. I joined in Alpha 4, and it was present then (though it's been tweaked since).
i find that devil stand is kind of pointless. if i start growing it immediately when i land i usually have scaved or traded enough to kit my fighters decently with at least those bullet proof vest things and dusters
Quote from: Zsword on October 06, 2014, 04:53:44 PM
By the by. If you wanna grow your own Devil, DON'T use Hydro basins. The odds of a Solar Flare or Eclipse/Battery Bomb destroying the Hydro plots usability is just toooo high.
This. I set up my hydro, grew for a couple weeks, got a solar flare... and it's all gone.
Quote from: Varnhagen on October 06, 2014, 04:01:03 PM
Right now I sell off the cloth and make useless hats out of leather, because I can't sell leather to a merchant. Don't know if pants or shirts would be more lucrative.
Shirt/pants take 50 units to make, hat takes 40... they all sell for about the same; so hats are a better choice for using leather.
I usually grow a massive bloc of it in some field, then leave it there until harvest. I make clothing out of it and sell the rest, which usually nets me what I need for the endgame plasteel rush.
I love devilstrand for the color alone, but their status as best/second best armor makes it far superior to boomrat hides. I'm waiting for craftable dusters so I can dress all my colonists up like Carmen Sandiego. Most stylish colony in the outer rim!
Quote from: Tynan on October 07, 2014, 01:56:37 PM
I'm gonna change price calculations in A8 to make more reasonable prices for apparel.
Giving this some thought while playing I realized this might be quite the nut to crack. I came to the conclusion that cotton was at a reasonable value, while clothing was almost too much considering the quantities left behind by raiders - at the same time they are not valuable enough when compared to the value of their raw materials...
As a result I think the best solution would be to introduce a cloth/armor degradation system. I dunno how expensive it would be to introduce that kinda system though, but no new AI or objects should be required. If wanting the ability to repair worn clothes the tailor's workbench could be used for both production and repair.
Also, if the degradation is pretty slow over time (minus the extra damage taken from weapons of course) it shouldn't frustrate the players with having to get new clothes all the time, while still establishing the opportunity to have the more worn out clothes that the raiders come with being much less valuable compared to newly produced clothes, essentially preventing the "silver spam" from selling worn clothes as it's borderline now while still having a high initial value for the clothes.
I dunno, I'm sure Tynan will figure out something, but I just felt an urge to think out loud about this, lol. Anyone else have something to add to this? Is cloth degradation a dumb idea? Other suggestions? Or it's less of an issue than I'm imagining it to be?