Position on slavery should depend on background

[stefanstr]

I posted it as a comment on another thread but I think it actually deserves being here as a suggestion as well:

IMO, the whole mood debuff for selling people is too general. Most cultures throughout human history had slavery and didn't see an issue with it. It's in the last 200 years that people started to see it as intrinsically bad.

I think that a person's position on slavery should be tied to their background traits. If someone lived on a highly developed world (and maybe also if they were a slave themselves), they should dislike slavery. But if someone was a medieval lordling or something like that, they should see slavery as something completely normal.

[Kraehe]

+1

[Mikhail Reign]

+1

[mumblemumble]

To add onto this,  i think the same should apply to others.

Soldiers less bothered by death,  farmers less bothered by bad environment,  or animal death,  sex slave being either incredibly submissive to sexual advances,  or incredibly hostile,  haha.

[stefanstr]

To add onto this,  i think the same should apply to others.

Soldiers less bothered by death,  farmers less bothered by bad environment,  or animal death,  sex slave being either incredibly submissive to sexual advances,  or incredibly hostile,  haha.

Agreed!

[falconbunker]

+1

[anonymous456]

Of course it's more ideal, but it is also important to note that it's quite a bit of work to implement this and even then there will be people who are not content with how it's done.

How many backgrounds are there? The wiki doesn't list them all. Somebody would have to check on all of them and guess if they are okay with slavery or not. Some backgrounds don't mention a world at all, so you would have to decide arbitrarily what they think about it. And then after it's all done and decided somebody's going to come up and dispute why the medieval stable boy is okay with slavery or the criminal mastermind is disgusted by it.

After that, you still have to factor the psychopath trait in. Is the criminal mastermind not okay with slavery but as a psychopath he is? Or should he still care about it because he has some sort of weird, ethical codex? Why is the VR designer turned serial killer okay with slavery, but not with murder? That type of thing, you know. There's a lot to figure in, lots of factors and the scope of this could easily be bigger than imagined at first.

A general "no until psychopath" is probably okay for now, but maybe somewhere in the future...

[Harold3456]

Of course it's more ideal, but it is also important to note that it's quite a bit of work to implement this and even then there will be people who are not content with how it's done.

How many backgrounds are there? The wiki doesn't list them all. Somebody would have to check on all of them and guess if they are okay with slavery or not. Some backgrounds don't mention a world at all, so you would have to decide arbitrarily what they think about it. And then after it's all done and decided somebody's going to come up and dispute why the medieval stable boy is okay with slavery or the criminal mastermind is disgusted by it.

After that, you still have to factor the psychopath trait in. Is the criminal mastermind not okay with slavery but as a psychopath he is? Or should he still care about it because he has some sort of weird, ethical codex? Why is the VR designer turned serial killer okay with slavery, but not with murder? That type of thing, you know. There's a lot to figure in, lots of factors and the scope of this could easily be bigger than imagined at first.

A general "no until psychopath" is probably okay for now, but maybe somewhere in the future...

It seems like it wouldn't be harder than going down the list and ticking off which ones would be good with slavery and assumig the rest wouldn't be. That way the player can assume by looking who would be good with it and who wouldn't, but wouldn't know for sure (like real life!)

[Limdood]

i have to disagree....this is theoretically science fiction of OUR future.  At this point in our history, we have evolved our morality to the point that the vast majority of the world thinks that slavery is immoral.

As we don't currently have cryopods yet, it is fair to assume that any morality universally established at this point in our history wouldn't inexplicably revert.  Virtually every concept in the game currently is represented in our society (at least as a current idea).  For example, cannibalism is bad, being forced to live side by side with corpses all around is bad, slavery is bad.  All of these cause mood penalties.

To give a trait to allow people to avoid negative effects of these (or even benefit) makes sense, as it's an unexpected deviance.  being ok with slavery fits the same way (and is just rolled in with psychopath, understandably...absence of empathy). 

Remember additionally that even the tribal cultures are expected in rimworld lore to be OUR descendents (3.5 millenia in the future, but still our descendents...we who have as an understanding of world morality, gradually but absolutely turned from acceptance of slavery). 

[Lady Wolf]

i have to disagree....this is theoretically science fiction of OUR future.  At this point in our history, we have evolved our morality to the point that the vast majority of the world thinks that slavery is immoral.

However would the same society still have a problem with selling those who murdered their friends/families off to slavers, or harvesting these captured killers organs to save the lives of friends/loved ones that were maimed by them in their raid? (Assuming of course it was the only practical alternative to letting said family members die, such as it often is in Rimworld.)


I think there should be a 1-3 day grace period during which you can harvest/sell into slavery/execute any captured raiders without penalty. (Perhaps +1 day grace period per colonist wounded/killed?) This would represent the colonies initial emotionally enraged feelings towards the prisoners for they've done to the colony, where in they would likely not feel any remorse harvesting the stomach and kidneys from a pair of raiders to save their wife/daughter etc, or selling the lot of raiders to a passing ship so they can buy food to survive the winter and materials to rebuild their defenses.

After that time has elapsed (or perhaps immediately if you choose the interact/recruit settings in the prisoner tab) then it would make sense for the colony to see them as people rather than blood thirsty villains and the expected moral objections to harvesting/enslaving the prisoners.

Alternatively there should also be an option to sell the prisoners to a passing bounty hunter ship for a profit (lesser than the profit from selling them as slaves) without any mood penalties at all. After all it's impractical to keep them as prisoners forever, and releasing those who killed your family isn't going to sit well with the colony as a whole, so selling them to a bounty hunter who will deliver them to some actual prison for trial and sentencing would make sense. (especially when you can safely assume the raiders already have bounties on their heads from previous raids on other colonies/ships.)

[Chicken Breast]

...At this point in our history, we have evolved our morality to the point that the vast majority of the world thinks that slavery is immoral...

That's subjective, honestly. No way of saying whether or not by the point we've spread to all these different worlds, over 3.5k years, that cultures would not deviate in all ways. We don't know the lore of this universe, regardless of whether it is our future or not. On new worlds, different people could have risen to power, changing the rules for future generations, and changing the culture entirely. People growing up in a Medieval style society, slaves, lords, etc, would be accustomed to the idea of slavery, forced labor, and servitude in general. They are extremely familiar with hierarchy, and there is no way we can entirely cross out the idea that exactly this would happen. Can we assume anything? No, but given how people are, we can take a guess.

You don't necessarily have to be a psychopath to be taught to believe that slavery is okay. In the same way that people are raised to believe any number of things that don't make sense. If they are never taught to question it, they'll live their lives under the assumption that what they are told is true. We cannot pretend that every world we settle on will turn out like our society now. Our society is flawed, as every society before ours, and as every society beyond ours will likely be.

There are sex slave backgrounds, and it is unlikely that all of these colonists were from only medieval worlds. There are likely more cultures and planets that have slavery, whether in the underground or in the regular economy. Perhaps Roman-styled cultures or other cultures that use indentured servitude or forced labor? Remember, there is more than one form of slavery.

[mumblemumble]

i have to disagree....this is theoretically science fiction of OUR future.  At this point in our history, we have evolved our morality to the point that the vast majority of the world thinks that slavery is immoral.

As we don't currently have cryopods yet, it is fair to assume that any morality universally established at this point in our history wouldn't inexplicably revert.  Virtually every concept in the game currently is represented in our society (at least as a current idea).  For example, cannibalism is bad, being forced to live side by side with corpses all around is bad, slavery is bad.  All of these cause mood penalties.

To give a trait to allow people to avoid negative effects of these (or even benefit) makes sense, as it's an unexpected deviance.  being ok with slavery fits the same way (and is just rolled in with psychopath, understandably...absence of empathy). 

Remember additionally that even the tribal cultures are expected in rimworld lore to be OUR descendents (3.5 millenia in the future, but still our descendents...we who have as an understanding of world morality, gradually but absolutely turned from acceptance of slavery).

Wut...

Uhm...er...

Dude, what are you talking about? slave trade is ALIVE AND WELL in rimworld, as are organ farms, sexual slavery, cannibalism, piracy, drug use, ect.

You are trying to build a tent and say the galaxy is dry, not the case.

As for "evolving morals", this is bs, at least in the context of "genetically evolved", as being instinctually compassionate leads to death. I dare you, try one game where you don't fight anything, see if you make it to summer.

And again, you are one of the people who assume "progress" in society cannot go back, AND that progress of one area DOES NOT mean progress in another. Even in current day, while America and other places are rather well off, there are areas filled with disease, war, murder, slavery, rape, ect. yes slavery, it still exists in the world, more so than back when blacks were enslaved in America.

And if a catastrophic event happens, damn right morals will suffer. Its easy to treat everyone fair when theres plenty of room, space, resources, but once shit hits the fan and theres not enough to go around, morals take a back seat to survival, and if they don't you are the first to die.

Not to mention, we are talking about certain BACKGROUNDS. Why in gods name would an assassin for instance be as bothered by death as say, a glitter-world surgeon? Why would a noble be as bothered by slavery as say, a farm oaf? Just because a part of society "generally" feels one way does not mean everyone in that society agrees, you can have a society which slavery is common, and people against it (civil war era?) or a society which punishes racism and have people in it who are still racist and call stuff out, knowing they will be shunned for it.

I would also think, as a pipe dream, things could "become" normal for people. If someone is plucked from the wilderness and given a great life at the cost of selling a few people into slavery, they might become callous to the slavery, because the benefits outweigh it. This happens a LOT in reality, like an employee ignoring abuses of a boss because he has a sweet gig, or because they are afraid to speak up, so they just ignore it.

But theres so many elements going into "morality", perception of WHO is involved (your enemy you will care little about, friends you WILL care about, perhaps xenophobia to a certain extent, or far more care for your own "kind", in this case, colonists) and the culture they know.

Why don't pirate bands break down from all the killing, theft, and slavery they do? because they are pirate assholes. If we were pirate assholes, it would be the same way.

Also, never forget progress can easily be lost, even in 1 generation if not careful. Vast 1st world societies can become slums in a few decades, and children of high status children can devolve into animistic and cruel ways if not taught otherwise

[PotatoeTater]

i have to disagree....this is theoretically science fiction of OUR future.  At this point in our history, we have evolved our morality to the point that the vast majority of the world thinks that slavery is immoral.

As we don't currently have cryopods yet, it is fair to assume that any morality universally established at this point in our history wouldn't inexplicably revert.  Virtually every concept in the game currently is represented in our society (at least as a current idea).  For example, cannibalism is bad, being forced to live side by side with corpses all around is bad, slavery is bad.  All of these cause mood penalties.

To give a trait to allow people to avoid negative effects of these (or even benefit) makes sense, as it's an unexpected deviance.  being ok with slavery fits the same way (and is just rolled in with psychopath, understandably...absence of empathy). 

Remember additionally that even the tribal cultures are expected in rimworld lore to be OUR descendents (3.5 millenia in the future, but still our descendents...we who have as an understanding of world morality, gradually but absolutely turned from acceptance of slavery).

Wut...

Uhm...er...

Dude, what are you talking about? slave trade is ALIVE AND WELL in rimworld, as are organ farms, sexual slavery, cannibalism, piracy, drug use, ect.

You are trying to build a tent and say the galaxy is dry, not the case.

As for "evolving morals", this is bs, at least in the context of "genetically evolved", as being instinctually compassionate leads to death. I dare you, try one game where you don't fight anything, see if you make it to summer.

And again, you are one of the people who assume "progress" in society cannot go back, AND that progress of one area DOES NOT mean progress in another. Even in current day, while America and other places are rather well off, there are areas filled with disease, war, murder, slavery, rape, ect. yes slavery, it still exists in the world, more so than back when blacks were enslaved in America.

And if a catastrophic event happens, damn right morals will suffer. Its easy to treat everyone fair when theres plenty of room, space, resources, but once shit hits the fan and theres not enough to go around, morals take a back seat to survival, and if they don't you are the first to die.

Not to mention, we are talking about certain BACKGROUNDS. Why in gods name would an assassin for instance be as bothered by death as say, a glitter-world surgeon? Why would a noble be as bothered by slavery as say, a farm oaf? Just because a part of society "generally" feels one way does not mean everyone in that society agrees, you can have a society which slavery is common, and people against it (civil war era?) or a society which punishes racism and have people in it who are still racist and call stuff out, knowing they will be shunned for it.

I would also think, as a pipe dream, things could "become" normal for people. If someone is plucked from the wilderness and given a great life at the cost of selling a few people into slavery, they might become callous to the slavery, because the benefits outweigh it. This happens a LOT in reality, like an employee ignoring abuses of a boss because he has a sweet gig, or because they are afraid to speak up, so they just ignore it.

But theres so many elements going into "morality", perception of WHO is involved (your enemy you will care little about, friends you WILL care about, perhaps xenophobia to a certain extent, or far more care for your own "kind", in this case, colonists) and the culture they know.

Why don't pirate bands break down from all the killing, theft, and slavery they do? because they are pirate assholes. If we were pirate assholes, it would be the same way.

Also, never forget progress can easily be lost, even in 1 generation if not careful. Vast 1st world societies can become slums in a few decades, and children of high status children can devolve into animistic and cruel ways if not taught otherwise

+1