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[Zombra]

But you see, the thing is that in real life, you'd have 'rock and a hard place' setups like that. And in moments of panic, who says that the AI should act intelligently?

In other words, it's perfectly fine to build a new exploit that the AI can't cope with.  I can think of someone who would probably disagree with you.

[rexx1888]

you shouldnt be naysaying design suggestions just because they can be exploited, its like saying you wont eat food because it can spoit :\

the ai needs work, everyone gets that, so it isnt a big deal to implement new ideas before that overhauls done. an if its done well, then many exploits like the ones being banged on about in this thread wont exist regardless of what a colonist controlled door will do.

quit derailing threads with chatter about exploits :\

i still think a manual blast door could be a really handy tool for the players kit, an i think we need some new interesting tools for players to play with in regards to actually playing the game. all that story stuff is fun, but i want to be actually doing fun things while i wait for the story stuff to happen

[keylocke]

well the main exploit has often been that enemies rarely recognize trap areas and killboxes.
sapper raids were supposed to tackle this AI derp, but sapper AI can easily be exploited as well since they tend to ignore ambushers. (edit : sapper raids also tend to have fewer raiders and they often send them in waves, which makes them easier to deal with)

so i think every raid should just always have sappers (ie : sapper AI for grenadiers would only activate once they are already inside home zone of player, but act like normal raider AI prior to this. they would also have the added bonus of having tons of fellow raiders in a normal raid).

i also think bows and thrown weapons should be able pass over walls in any unroofed area (but with an aim penalty).

i also think raiders should be more able to recognize killboxes by checking number of deaths of each location. this AI death map will tell raiders which areas to avoid, like making "restricted zones" for raiders. this death map will be updated after each raid.

and since every raid is gonna bring sappers with them, it doesn't matter if players hide under a mountain or if they use power hatches or whatever. raiders would always path using the death map as a guide.

[Zombra]

you shouldnt be naysaying design suggestions just because they can be exploited

The whole point of the idea seems to be "I want a new exploit."

quit derailing threads with chatter about exploits :\

The guy said flat out in the first post, it's cheesy but I want it anyway.  It's not "derailing" to reply to what was said right in the OP.
The only justification he gave is because he could imagine it happening in real life.

I guess I haven't started beating the drum on this forum yet, so mark your diaries, I'm saying this here for the first of many times:

"Realism" should always take a back seat to good gameplay, particularly in system-driven games like RimWorld.

When the ONLY reason to recommend a new system is NOT because it would be fun, NOT because it would add gameplay, NOT because it would be well balanced, but because "maybe it could happen in real life" ... that is not a good reason to suggest something.
PARTICULARLY when it's obvious at a glance even to the person suggesting it that it is cheesy and invites exploits for chrissake!

[theapolaustic1]

you shouldnt be naysaying design suggestions just because they can be exploited, its like saying you wont eat food because it can spoit :\

No, it's like saying you shouldn't eat arsenic because it's not very healthy.

well the main exploit has often been that enemies rarely recognize trap areas and killboxes.
sapper raids were supposed to tackle this AI derp, but sapper AI can easily be exploited as well since they tend to ignore ambushers. (edit : sapper raids also tend to have fewer raiders and they often send them in waves, which makes them easier to deal with)

so i think every raid should just always have sappers (ie : sapper AI for grenadiers would only activate once they are already inside home zone of player, but act like normal raider AI prior to this. they would also have the added bonus of having tons of fellow raiders in a normal raid).

i also think bows and thrown weapons should be able pass over walls in any unroofed area (but with an aim penalty).

i also think raiders should be more able to recognize killboxes by checking number of deaths of each location. this AI death map will tell raiders which areas to avoid, like making "restricted zones" for raiders. this death map will be updated after each raid.

and since every raid is gonna bring sappers with them, it doesn't matter if players hide under a mountain or if they use power hatches or whatever. raiders would always path using the death map as a guide.

I like the idea of a deathmap, especially as a component to a larger AI overhaul. Another problem is raiders sending absolutely silly people at you that add "fuzz" to the point value used for raids. The smarter the loadouts are about distributing points, the less raids where a dozen people with excellent shivs and superior shields try to dig through a wall.

Better loot for the player is easily matched by smarter AI and better loadouts for attackers. I'd be much more intimidated by three assault rifles held by competent marksmen than the current "brawler with a sniper rifle" randomness. And it's much easier to balance the game around consistency in threat level at point thresholds.

[blub01]

summed up: possible, but needs a lot of AI work to make it unexploitable. as that AI work would greatly benefit the game anyway, why the hell not? although the game should probably give courses in military tactics, then..

[hector212121]

The thing about a deathmap is that after a while, the map would say the same thing about everywhere...because everywhere would be the same.

Perhaps a "security map" where enemy pawns who ESCAPE(!) remember where security is that they've LOS'd and judge based on security "strength" and turret count--so a single, say, Reinforced Steel(from a mod) turret would be worth more than two normal steel turrets because it has ten times the health, meaning it'll probably deal 2.5 times more total damage(assuming that the normal ones get targeted evenly).

[keylocke]

The thing about a deathmap is that after a while, the map would say the same thing about everywhere...because everywhere would be the same.

deathmap would just update itself after each raid. for example : if a lot of raiders die in X location, then they would avoid pathing through that location.

raiders would always take the path with the least amount of deaths, so even if the entire map is full of killboxes, raiders would always take the safest path. (ie : path with least amount of deaths)

[b0rsuk]

How would it be serious?

You don't understand how difficult programming is. You keep using high level concept, but computers operate on very low level terms. Computers are complete idiots and have to be given instructions for every possible case.

Easy to make AI would most likely be easy to exploit.

[Klitri]

As a simple programmer, I can easily say that the work the AI needs is beyond any "simple" code. You would need to spend time on something like this, and it adds more fixes than it does solutions, so no, your idea isn't a good idea. I'm sorry.

And for the record, computers run on true and false as previously stated. This means a true and false needs to be given for every situation an AI runs into. EVERY situation. It's not simple.

[keylocke]

hmm.. iirc, pathing in rimworld works like this :

if you order a pawn to go across the marshland from one point or another, each floor tile have different levels of traversal value. ie : walking on dirt or mud is much slower than walking on cemented pavement.

so the navigation system of pawns already take into account the traversal value of each different type of floor tiles to reach it's target destination by taking the fastest and most efficient path.

a deathmap, essentially just adds a layer of information over the value of these floor tiles after every raid. ie : a floor tile could have X traversal value + deathmap value.

so the pawns will just take both the traversal value and the deathmap value in choosing the most optimal path, the same way that each pawn already takes each floor tile's traversal value by default.

[blub01]

The thing about a deathmap is that after a while, the map would say the same thing about everywhere...because everywhere would be the same.

ah, but if you balance the lethality value of one tile against any other tiles, while total deaths in different locations would go up, the "death quotient" relative to other areas would still be reflecting the actual lethality of the location. so while, after playing for (ingame) decades, any spot on the map would have collected hundreds of deaths, your defensive positions would have collected a few thousand - and the death map would still be accurate.

on another note, I suggest that the death map would reset to its previous state if you kill all attacking raiders, but if some of them flee, the death map for that faction would be permanently updated.

[keylocke]

on another note, I suggest that the death map would reset to its previous state if you kill all attacking raiders, but if some of them flee, the death map for that faction would be permanently updated.

oh yiiiss.. leave no witness alive.. hahaha. 

[blub01]

on another note, I suggest that the death map would reset to its previous state if you kill all attacking raiders, but if some of them flee, the death map for that faction would be permanently updated.

oh yiiiss.. leave no witness alive.. hahaha. 

exactly.