Should bullets be added as a new resource?

[porcupine]

Combat Realism for A13 should add this.

After having played A12D with combat realism, I don't want to play Rimworld again without it TBH.  You'd be surprised how easily it all integrates (the A12d one didn't have ammo as a resource, but you did have a bullets left in clip counter, have to reload strategically, cover system was better used, etc.).

While this may sound to some like micro, remember the enemy deals with this too, and it has significant impact (IE: being able to strategically make a run for it when they're reloading, swarming mechs when they're reloading, stuff like that).

[Mathenaut]

Combat Realism in A12 added depth to combat, but didn't require a ton of micro. Just allowed the use of strategy.

Kinda iffy on the A13 bit so far. If the ammo bit turns out like I'm expecting, I'll do without.

[panofduluth]

I disagree with the whole post. guns are not OP. you cant fire while being melee attacked. there is a cool down timer could call that a reload. and certain guns already fire differently and amounts. call that your mag. what you are talking about is just way to in depth better left for mods. not that its a terrible idea. i feel like you would be strapped for ammo while raiders come in with ammo. you would being playing a bullet/ mag organizing plus production game and thats not what its entirely about.

i never stated that the guns were OP just that i din`t found sense in the way they worked and yeah thats my point but as the poll shows the oppions are very mixed, so this can be solved in 3 ways
-Not putting it at all
-Implementing it as a MOD
-Make it optional in the "Advanced" Menu

never meant to say YOU said guns are not OP. that is my own words sorry for the confusion. i think it would make a fantastic mod. and i think it would also be great if Tynan added in many many more game options for customized play. but i just don't think ammo should be in vanilla.

[daman2501]

Every time you trade with a combat trader they throw in 10 years worth of ammo. They like to keep their business going.

Anyway, it probably already exists as a mod, or it will eventually. Adding it to the base game is not happening, as Tynan already considered and rejected the idea. Not sure what else there is to say about it.

Then a MOD would be so Badass

[keylocke]

this is one of those ideas that will have some huge resistance to some players in rimworld.
especially since the player base have already been used to the gunplay and having guns as the primary go-to weapon of choice even in the early game. (most people just skip the low-tech equipment tiers and head for the top-gear coz the game "balance" such as it is, often sends you enemies that are heavily skewed against your favor)

in other simulation games i've played like DF and gnomoria. melee is the primary weapon of choice and ranged weapons are mostly in the mid to late part of the game. however in games like timber&stone, setting up ammo for your archers can be done early and reliably to the point that having ammunition isn't really much of a hassle. crafting ammo and stocking it is pretty much second nature, and by the time you're playing it, you barely even consider how supposedly "micromanagey" or "gimmicky" it is..

instead, i felt amused by the production pipeline and the logistics behind the system. but it mostly depends on HOW it would be implemented into the game.

in rimworld, i could see that most of the "micromanagey" stuff would get automated. like you don't have to manually restock each individual with ammunition, as long as you got ammo available in your stockpile.

------

the cons :

the problem that i mainly see is that melee combat is often skewed in favor of who has the majority (enemies often outnumber you). plus, melee skills in rimworld is a pain to train since there are no training dummies, no squad training, etc.. while the raiders occasionally come with high combat skills compared to yours. plus, it's also hard to control when your pawns and their pawns start stacking on the same tile.. so you're pretty much screwed in a head on collision.

it might also transition the game from guns as the weapon of choice to melee combat as the main standard. or focus more on low-tech weapons and keep the high-tech gear stocked in case of emergencies.

but the problem with melee combat is that it would make your pawns more prone to get damaged, often times permanently damaged.. and the medical and recruitment process is gonna be a pain to deal with due to this.

-----

the pros :

but if someone could come up with a solution for those problems, the pros of having ammunition in the game is having more tactical and strategic variations.

ie :

-ammo can have different damage types : like rubber bullets for blunt damage, hollow point bullets for increased damage against lightly armored opponents, incendiary bullets, explosive bullets, emp bullets, etc.. basically ammo variety can allow players to diversify their approach by stocking up on the right ammo against the right enemies.

-battles are now gonna include logistics of ammo. battles against raiders with guns isn't just a shoot-em-up, it also is a battle of attrition. other people would see this as a "con" rather than a "pro". but in games like DF, gnomoria, timber&stone, etc.. it's really not that hard to deal with.

-----------------------------

to sum it up :

-ammo scarcity could shift the focus of the game from ranged combat to melee combat.
-melee combat got issues with pawn stacking, often being outnumbered by enemies, and being more prone to permanent damage. (though these issues are practically standard combat in DF and gnomoria)
-there needs to be a reliable way to train melee skills in rimworld like training dummies or squad training.
-there needs to be a reliable way to prevent melee combat damage like medieval shields which could reliably block melee attacks.
-meanwhile, ammo variety unlocks tons of new tactical and strategic gameplay for guns. ammo logistics could be fun and intuitive if implemented properly.


basically, i've seen it implemented in other similar games and i've enjoyed it.
i don't mind it getting implemented in rimworld if it can be implemented properly, but it's gonna be such a pain trying to convince other people who are already used to the basic gunplay in rimworld.

hmm... my suggestion is for people to play timber&stone for awhile until you get the knack of it, since they also have an RTS-like battle system while at the same time, having ammunition logistics.

some people likes that kind of system, some people don't like it. it depends on the player.

--------------------------

EDIT:

oh wait, lel.

there is a way to add ammo without having to deal with scarcity.
ammo types can just be implemented like an inventory item.

ie :

no ammo = your gun will use standard ammo type.
equip an ammo type in your inventory = your gun will shoot using that ammo type.

rimworld already has an inventory management system so all you really have to do is assign an ammo type to a pawn, and they would auto-equip the ammo.

---------

it's a bit off-topic, but i also wanna see having a secondary weapon slot one day. haha.
i just like having many tactical options available.

ammo types is one of those tactical options i think would be fun. 

but yea, nothing's changed. a lot of people are still gonna oppose this idea so i'm not too optimistic about it.

[panofduluth]

the difference between DF and this when it comes to ammo though is that DF has way less ammo types. if there was a mag and caliber for every different gun it would be to much. however i do like the idea of a longer beginning game and perhaps it could be a thing if combat was completely revamped.

[daman2501]

Its also other issues,  storage (even if bullets stacked to 999, would take up more space)  matching rounds to guns (shotguns and rifles but no shells or rifle rounds? Use a pistol) cost (I'm guessing ammo will be at a fraction of silver each depending on the round) Crafting (metal /soms kind of fuel, maybe a way to turn meat into gunpowder?)  and balance (getting killed by a raid by having no ammo would be hair pulling)

Not say it can't be done, but there's so much to take into account for it to not be broken

It could be made an optional thing just like permadead

[endders2]

It should be a thing. Ammo SHOULD be something you HAVE to HAVE to shoot weaponry. What is the complaint about not having it ? ohhhh micromanage, no not really they'll pick up their ammo based on their weapon obviously and if they don't have anything they'll just melee.. pretty simple ?
If you don't want to obviously there are other options to not having to use guns, it sounds like most people have never used a long sword with a mk1 shield in the game before. Its the most lethal weapon and pretty much one shots most wild life and other things that might ruin your day, so be it. Want to be a REAL A@@ hat give the longsword person a suit of power armor...... mercy be upon you dear raiders.

I'd even go as far as saying it would make the game a lot more fun if you ran out of ammo during a battle, you might then have to use melee weapons most people throw away... Plus with the addition of attack animals and such this game would be great with a thing like ammo added. Have it something simple  crafted with per say steel and have mags crafted for whatever weapon and bam. So i'm 100% in support of said idea. The game seems weird without it being its a kind of neat game where people could lose limbs ect. There's already examples of ammo being required in the game as well, where is my endless arty ? Why do I have to load that with ammo if not my gun ? #logic/over/wants ( yes you can kill mechs with just long swords, even the centipede rather quickly. )

[Moth]

I feel it would add needless complexity to everything. Mods would become more time intensive to make for instance, combat would require more micro management and ammo production would be a chore.

[Mathenaut]

Nobody is going to run out of ammo. It wouldn't (couldn't, sensibly) take much to make and it just becomes another thing your colonists waste time loading up on every so often. Firefights don't last that long anyways.

[Kegereneku]

Leave it for mods
Let a modder test the concept, it will always be time LATER to reconsider the idea if popular.

I DON'T LIKE the idea, but the best way to consider it is through a minimalist approach :
- stack of "ammo" / "arrow" can be crafted.
- undrafted Colonist automatically fetch <number> of "ammo"
- gun use a quantity per "fake-shot" (so as to not destroy the current balance)
- "colonist lack ammo" message.
If we can't make something simple work, then the idea was doomed from the start.

What is the complaint about not having it ? ohhhh micromanage, no not really they'll pick up their ammo based on their weapon obviously and if they don't have anything they'll just melee.. pretty simple ?

I don't know how bored you got but "pointless micromanagement" is not a must-have in game design.
The problem is twofold :
- It must take as little effort from the player to keep available (if we have to pause the game all the time, you failed).
- Everything will have to be rebalanced around it : How much hauling-run does it take (so you have the time to do anything else), the (fake)fire-rate, damage-per-hit, precision, even AI-tactic (For example so you can't exploit the mechanic to have raider-AI run out by idiocy), also sapper (no infinite grenade after all)

[NoImageAvailable]

Honestly, I don't think ammo is worth it in vanilla as it is right now.

It could add scarcity to ranged weapons except there is no scarcity in Rimworld. If that was the goal there are plenty other places to start, like a complete progression overhaul, tool/research-based progression (need a decent pickaxe before you can mine steel), etc. It could also add logistics except there are no real logistics in Rimworld. You set a crafting bill to make ammo until you have x, pawns pick it up automatically (anything less would simply be tedious for the player and nothing else) and every once in a while you designate a steel vein for mining.

Some people brought up CR but the only reason CR added ammo is because the last few alphas were spent laying the mechanical foundation to allow diversity in ammo selection. By adding things like armor penetration and secondary ammo effects it creates meaningful choices in loadout selection, a round that is highly lethal to an unarmored tribal might be ineffective against an armored pirate and vice versa.

In vanilla there is rate of fire, accuracy and damage which combine into a generalized mean-time to kill which applies to all enemies more or less equally. There is simply no room for variety in this. If ammo is to be viable there need to be a number of mechanical additions to combat as a whole first and I doubt we're going to see that.

[daman2501]

Every time you trade with a combat trader they throw in 10 years worth of ammo. They like to keep their business going.

Anyway, it probably already exists as a mod, or it will eventually. Adding it to the base game is not happening, as Tynan already considered and rejected the idea. Not sure what else there is to say about it.

ohh ok sorry for the confusion

Then a MOD would be so Badass

[daman2501]

this is one of those ideas that will have some huge resistance to some players in rimworld.
especially since the player base have already been used to the gunplay and having guns as the primary go-to weapon of choice even in the early game. (most people just skip the low-tech equipment tiers and head for the top-gear coz the game "balance" such as it is, often sends you enemies that are heavily skewed against your favor)

in other simulation games i've played like DF and gnomoria. melee is the primary weapon of choice and ranged weapons are mostly in the mid to late part of the game. however in games like timber&stone, setting up ammo for your archers can be done early and reliably to the point that having ammunition isn't really much of a hassle. crafting ammo and stocking it is pretty much second nature, and by the time you're playing it, you barely even consider how supposedly "micromanagey" or "gimmicky" it is..

instead, i felt amused by the production pipeline and the logistics behind the system. but it mostly depends on HOW it would be implemented into the game.

in rimworld, i could see that most of the "micromanagey" stuff would get automated. like you don't have to manually restock each individual with ammunition, as long as you got ammo available in your stockpile.

------

the cons :

the problem that i mainly see is that melee combat is often skewed in favor of who has the majority (enemies often outnumber you). plus, melee skills in rimworld is a pain to train since there are no training dummies, no squad training, etc.. while the raiders occasionally come with high combat skills compared to yours. plus, it's also hard to control when your pawns and their pawns start stacking on the same tile.. so you're pretty much screwed in a head on collision.

it might also transition the game from guns as the weapon of choice to melee combat as the main standard. or focus more on low-tech weapons and keep the high-tech gear stocked in case of emergencies.

but the problem with melee combat is that it would make your pawns more prone to get damaged, often times permanently damaged.. and the medical and recruitment process is gonna be a pain to deal with due to this.

-----

the pros :

but if someone could come up with a solution for those problems, the pros of having ammunition in the game is having more tactical and strategic variations.

ie :

-ammo can have different damage types : like rubber bullets for blunt damage, hollow point bullets for increased damage against lightly armored opponents, incendiary bullets, explosive bullets, emp bullets, etc.. basically ammo variety can allow players to diversify their approach by stocking up on the right ammo against the right enemies.

-battles are now gonna include logistics of ammo. battles against raiders with guns isn't just a shoot-em-up, it also is a battle of attrition. other people would see this as a "con" rather than a "pro". but in games like DF, gnomoria, timber&stone, etc.. it's really not that hard to deal with.

-----------------------------

to sum it up :

-ammo scarcity could shift the focus of the game from ranged combat to melee combat.
-melee combat got issues with pawn stacking, often being outnumbered by enemies, and being more prone to permanent damage. (though these issues are practically standard combat in DF and gnomoria)
-there needs to be a reliable way to train melee skills in rimworld like training dummies or squad training.
-there needs to be a reliable way to prevent melee combat damage like medieval shields which could reliably block melee attacks.
-meanwhile, ammo variety unlocks tons of new tactical and strategic gameplay for guns. ammo logistics could be fun and intuitive if implemented properly.


basically, i've seen it implemented in other similar games and i've enjoyed it.
i don't mind it getting implemented in rimworld if it can be implemented properly, but it's gonna be such a pain trying to convince other people who are already used to the basic gunplay in rimworld.

hmm... my suggestion is for people to play timber&stone for awhile until you get the knack of it, since they also have an RTS-like battle system while at the same time, having ammunition logistics.

some people likes that kind of system, some people don't like it. it depends on the player.

--------------------------

EDIT:

oh wait, lel.

there is a way to add ammo without having to deal with scarcity.
ammo types can just be implemented like an inventory item.

ie :

no ammo = your gun will use standard ammo type.
equip an ammo type in your inventory = your gun will shoot using that ammo type.

rimworld already has an inventory management system so all you really have to do is assign an ammo type to a pawn, and they would auto-equip the ammo.

---------

it's a bit off-topic, but i also wanna see having a secondary weapon slot one day. haha.
i just like having many tactical options available.

ammo types is one of those tactical options i think would be fun. 

but yea, nothing's changed. a lot of people are still gonna oppose this idea so i'm not too optimistic about it.

I would also love to see a secundary weapon slot and i love how you exposed the theme so well

[BetaSpectre]

If weapons had 0 cool down to fire or burst I'd say yes.

But as is with the high aiming time, and reletively fast movement of units there's no point in adding bullets.