Lee Rigby

[LouisTBR]

The absolute t*** that murdered a serving soldier in cold blood is now asking for £20K compensation after prison officers 'Knocked his teeth out'

Who else agrees that he should be hanged, drawn and quartered?

[Fluffy (l2032)]

what's the point of that? prove that we're no better than ISIS? We live in a (mostly) civilized society, the way we treat our most vulnerable (and that includes those in the penal system!) is how we'll be judged by posteriority.

If prison officers knocked his teeth out they should be fired, and criminal charges be brought against them. It is not their job to be judge, jury and executioner. And yes, should this have actually happened, compensation for the victim of this alleged crime seems reasonable, depending on actual damages done.

Don't let anyone tell you we should fight fire with fire, that doesn't make any sense. The only way to fight fire is by removing heat and/or fuel - in this case that means taking the high ground, because taking revenge just adds more fuel to the fire.

[LouisTBR]

I understand that it is against the law. I understand that it is against human rights. But: So is stabbing someone in the street.

My point: I would not call it 'Fire with Fire', more like 'Eye for an Eye". I find it audacious that he could even think about appealing for this. If our government wasn't so weak and indecisive, we might get somewhere.

If we asked the general public, on a Tonight poll or something alike, I would bet that 90%+ of them would say he should get nothing.

He is taking money away from our taxes, our government. It might be very small, but a portion of our taxes are paying for this animal...


2nd post
Lee Rigby's family gets no compensation. This bastard isn't paying them thousands of £££ for his attack. He ended someone's life, with no monetary cost. Police knock a few of his teeth out, they are expected to pay up.

No justice in that


3rd post
Finally:

There must've been a reason for the attack. If it was any sort of dangerous activity BANNED in prison, he should get NOTHING. The police were either protecting themselves or someone else. After fighting 5 officers?


Mod edit (Calahan) @ Louisthebadassrimworlder - I have merged your three posts into one to avoid you infringing forum rule #10. Please can you edit your existing post in future instead of creating multiple posts in quick succession. Thank you.

[Listen1]

Louis, I know your feeling and trust me, where i'm from 20.000 for a knock off tooth is nothing, there were already compensations of millions to murderes and drug dealers.

Should the event you described happen? Cmon, of course not. But he should receive enough for the Dental Treatment + trouble.

Why is that? Because it is a system called Law, and Law is a bitch... As all systems, it is flawed and has alot of exploits. This is one of them.  A criminal gets as much rights (in some countries even more rights) than a normal citizen. And the officer did an agression, something he shouldn't have done against a citizen. And he needs to be punished by it.

[LouisTBR]

Louis, I know your feeling and trust me, where i'm from 20.000 for a knock off tooth is nothing, there were already compensations of millions to murderes and drug dealers.

Should the event you described happen? Cmon, of course not. But he should receive enough for the Dental Treatment + trouble.

Why is that? Because it is a system called Law, and Law is a bitch... As all systems, it is flawed and has alot of exploits. This is one of them.  A criminal gets as much rights (in some countries even more rights) than a normal citizen. And the officer did an agression, something he shouldn't have done against a citizen. And he needs to be punished by it.

The officer acted in self defence. He deserves no punishment

Hopefully the law will change, so we can give monsters like this the punishment they deserve. Perhaps not hanging, but lethal injection should certainly be an option

[Listen1]

I for one, would like to see a project that once a citizen violated the law regarding other citizens, they would lose their citizenship. The amount of taxes they paid could be increased and they should be forced to do work for the government.

Without citizenship, you are not faced with the same options as a citizen, you have your rights but they are greatly reduced. Since you are not a citizen.

But I lack the full knowledge to make it myself.

[Fluffy (l2032)]

...

we're all human - whatever we may have done. we should all be judged by the same standard, with the same rules, and with the same basic human dignities. There can be no exceptions, because whomever we may deem to be sub-human today, in a year, or across a border, it will be someone else - maybe you?

we pride ourselves on being a free society, a lawful society. Supposedly that is what separates us from the barbarian, the terrorist. But the path we're taking, the path you're suggesting, will only bring us closer to being barbarians ourselves. Populism, nationalism, these are regressive ideologies. They allow us to believe that 'we' are somehow better than everyone else, that 'we' are more deserving. We're not. We're all - essentially - the same. We should all have the same opportunities, and when we break the law, we should all bear the same consequences.

I know this was a bit pompous, but it's hard not to get pompous when trying to defend ideals. I honestly do believe the above, and yes I know it's bloody hard to get over our prejudices, and yes some people do have it coming - but our legal system should be a reflection of our best values, not our worst impulses.

On a more practical note, I did qualify in my answer that if this had actually happened, he should get reimbursement. If the officer did indeed act in self-defense, I'm sure there's camera footage to prove that. I'm not trying to argue one way or another here, that's for a judge to decide (and possibly jury? the UK justice system confuses me..). The point is that the rules and consequences should be exactly the same for everyone, always.

[LouisTBR]

I for one, would like to see a project that once a citizen violated the law regarding other citizens, they would lose their citizenship. The amount of taxes they paid could be increased and they should be forced to do work for the government.

Without citizenship, you are not faced with the same options as a citizen, you have your rights but they are greatly reduced. Since you are not a citizen.

But I lack the full knowledge to make it myself.

This sounds like a great idea

[KillTyrant]

Level headed logic always wins. Violating his rights, violates yours. Allowing the gov't to take away citizenship is far more scary than a thug on the street. An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind. There comes a point where you have the temper your emotions against the greater good.

[mumblemumble]

A big elements of "rights" and "morality" is keeping in mind the scale of things.

Theres a reason theres no fault cases, where people don't get arrested

Take 2 dudes getting into a fist fight : Sure, they both broke the law, both made asses of themselves, but if they didn't endanger, or disturb people, and both agreed to the fight, generally cops might do nothing.

At the same time, if a dude crashes into another guys house, and then swears at and insults the homeowner, its kinda dismissed if the guy who crashed gets the shit kicked out of him, BECAUSE, crashing is much more severe than an ass whooping.

And this is the crux of the issue : When someone is very in the wrong, smaller things wrong against them should be dismissed.

I mean, think of it this way : If you had the chance to put stalin in prison, who put countless people to death, do you really think you would treat him nicely?

I doubt it...this said, should you be reprimanded? I mean, he did put hundreds of thousands to death, so the anger has some merit.

And this is the very core aspect of why I think this guy should not get compensated : If you ARE in the wrong, you have lost rights to be treated fairly.

splitting hairs on "you can only be treated badly in xyz way" is nice and dandy, to an extent, but the more severe this gets, the less water this argument carries.

Yes, punching a dude for calling someone a faggot might seem reasonable, to some, but its excessive...but punching a dude who tries assaulting someone, is completely warranted, and the more severe you get, the more pleas will fall upon deaf ears.

For instance, I think in texas, a man came home to find a worker of his was trying to bugger his son, and he beat the man to death with a hammer, then called the police

man was pretty much not even charged, BECAUSE, the fact the man tried to sodomize his son made the act of violence acceptable.

This is the key element to remember : Do not expect to be treated unfairly, if you act like a monster. Humanity is voluntary, and if you do not act like a human, you will be treated like an animal.

rights, and fair treatment and safety are compromised for you, anytime you  mess with someone elses rights, fair treatment, and safety.

Another thing : this is in europe right? justice isn't working there very well anyway, and this WILL lead to vigilante justice, like this

If you for instance, tell a kid who always gets his lunch money taken, that he just has to take it...don't be surprised if the bully ends up with a bloodied face when the kid has enough : Laws should reflect morals, and if they do not, people will take it into their hands.

Level headed logic always wins. Violating his rights, violates yours. Allowing the gov't to take away citizenship is far more scary than a thug on the street. An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind. There comes a point where you have the temper your emotions against the greater good.

People who want to kill and hurt you often cannot be dissuaded without first threats to defend yourself. And for someone who wants only to hurt you, you cannot reason with them, which is where force comes in.

[Fluffy (l2032)]

And this is the very core aspect of why I think this guy should not get compensated : If you ARE in the wrong, you have lost rights to be treated fairly.

Do not expect to be treated unfairly, if you act like a monster. Humanity is voluntary, and if you do not act like a human, you will be treated like an animal.

(strikethrough is mine, I assume you meant to say fairly)

Please think about what you're saying.
- how wrong do you need to be before you lose your rights?
if someone commits crime 'x', does that mean all 'lesser' crimes against him are now fair game? If you kill someone, can I then rape you? Steal your property? Can the state take your property if you kill someone? Does the man on the street get to decide? If I see you stealing, and I'm a strict muslim, do I get to chop your hands of? If I'm a strict christian and I see you commiting adultery, do I get to stone you? (or the woman you're with?)
- how do you define (acting like) a human?
Can everyone apply their own morality? Should there be a state-sanctioned and ranked list of morals? On an unrelated note, how do you treat your animals? Do you think morals might change over time? Do you think that might be an issue (keep in mind the position of Jews in WWII Germany, the Tutsis during the Rwandan genocide and muslims in current day Myanmar)?

The fact of the matter is that there can be no gray area. The law has to apply to everyone, all the time. Similarly, punishment can only be determined and administered by the state. Any other system inevitably turns into tyranny. Sure, it may work if you're part of the majority now - but it can get real ugly, real quick if you're not. And there will always be a minority, it may be terrorists today, criminals tomorrow, immigrants the day after, atheists in a week, non-whites in a month, and non-arians in a year. Eventually we'd all end up fighting for ourselves, and government and society falls apart.

Paraphrasing (and quoting) Thomas Hobbes; without rule of law and a monopoly on violence by the state, we go back to the natural state of mankind - and life would be solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.

This is the reason why there are fundamental human rights. There is no scale, no relativity. Humanity has learned it's lessons from history. Morality only comes into it on a meta level; it determines the fundamental rights we all have - but we can't go starting to make exceptions for individuals, let alone groups of individuals.


On a final note;

this is in europe right? justice isn't working there very well anyway, and this WILL lead to vigilante justice, like this

Please substantiate your claims that justice isn't working very well in Europe.

Violent crime in Europe is lower or equal to that of the US pretty much accross the board, even when taking into account that the proportion of reported crime in the EU is much higher, because the EU is better at tracking these statistics (compare the available statistics from eurostat vs. those of the FBI), definitions of crime are broader (e.g. violent crime in the US is homicide, forcible rape, robbery and aggravated assault; in the EU violent crime is any crime against the person, including 'simple' assaults, and any sexual offenses), and EU citizens are on the whole more willing to report crime (compare crime victim surveys where a randomized sample of the population is asked if they were the victim of a crime, vs. actual reported crime statistics).

The only measure in which the US is considerably ahead of Europe is the number of people it puts in jail, which is proportionally AND absolutely higher than anywhere else in the world. However, recidivism rates in the EU are mostly equal to or lower than those of the US (with the main exception of the UK, but again, definitions matter; the US definition of redicivism is re-incarceration, that of EU nations often includes offences as minor as speeding...).

Let's not even get started on gun violence.

Also, I'm a bit confused that you call a guard beating up a prisoner in the EU an example of the justice system failing in the EU, while you just gave an example of extreme vigilante justice in Texas, and said that was perfectly fine. Or was that an example of the US justice system working well?