Balance frag grenades, burning concrete (walls)

[Merry76]

The game is seriously fun, but two things really put me off.

Frag grenades. Those things should be anti-personal explosives coated in a breakable shell that gets converted into hot, sharp pain in a rather high radius. At least thats what they do in real life - In real life they do diddly squat against walls, sandbags and other in-animate objects because those in general do not care much about hot sharp objects. In Rimworld however they simply curbstomp everything they touch (especially sandbags - which is quite ironic as they are used against gunfire/shrapnell irl) and have no range (a 3x3 field). I can understand why the grenades are low-explosion range (game balancewise): you can actually outrun the blast if you react quickly wich makes for a bit of tactical command using. It would even be fun if the effect wouldnt result in a sandbag shooting spot that is simply destroyed after just a few 'nades. Seriously, structures need to be less break-y to explosives.

The next one is concrete walls that burn quicker than a wooden wall would. Seriously, thats some strange concrete my colonists are using. I know concrete can burn (give it a few thousand degrees - a normal fire cant go anywhere near as hot) or damaged by fire, but getting hit by a molotov should only do damage as long as the molotov itself has fuel. Not the concrete wall CATCHING fire and burning down on its own (transferring the fire to other segments of the wall) if no one goes next to it and pistol-whip it out.

tl;dr: our constructions are made from burnable cardboard. Please balance.

[linkxsc]

Yeah, grenades do way too much to structures and walls. They should really be subbed out in this role by an RPG or LAAW or something. Also, installable sprinkler systems for your walls. It seems to me, that if theres 1 dude with a molotov and he throws it into your wall during combat, the whole thing bursts into flames, and your stuck after the fight, putting out fires for a day and a half.

Personally as advice for merry. On my bases, I'll build "studded" walls. Just every other tile.
Its really time consuming to do, and raiders will walk right past them. But it provides cover for your colonists, and they can shoot. And your turrets can also shoot past them while having slightly more protection from fire. Often I find that enemies will stop spamming nades and molotovs everywhere when I do this, and though my crew will take more damage themselves, I can pull them back and they'll heal in a day or 2 rather then having to replace the wall.

[JonoRig]

yeah, grenades are pretty strong, maybe these could be renamed HE grenades and become rarer (for some sort of demo raider) and to balance the frag could have a larger range of anti personnel attack thats stopped by cover (used to clear out behind sandbags and the like) say 5x5 with a good chance of insta death?

[Merry76]

Personally as advice for merry. On my bases, I'll build "studded" walls. Just every other tile.

That sounds smart (gonna try it) - but maybe the AI learns to cope with it in the future

[Galileus]

Everything with "Balance", "Nerf" or "Buff" in it's topic can be summarized with:

A lot of things will change in next versions. Discussing balance now means you are balancing out things that will be obsolete when the next version rolls out. If it ain't no gamebreaker - leave it be, see what directions it goes to, if it gets worse or doesn't get better while being addressed - then it's the time to cry balance.

As it is now, without cardboard walls it's gg, bb for raiders. It's needed. Will it be like that in future versions? I wouldn't bet my salary on it.

[linkxsc]

That sounds smart (gonna try it) - but maybe the AI learns to cope with it in the future

Dont hold me to it though, and make sure to have a backup save. I really only do that once my colony reaches 6-7 people and I have a good supply of R4s or M16s.

Everything with "Balance", "Nerf" or "Buff" in it's topic can be summarized with:

A lot of things will change in next versions. Discussing balance now means you are balancing out things that will be obsolete when the next version rolls out. If it ain't no gamebreaker - leave it be, see what directions it goes to, if it gets worse or doesn't get better while being addressed - then it's the time to cry balance.

As it is now, without cardboard walls it's gg, bb for raiders. It's needed. Will it be like that in future versions? I wouldn't bet my salary on it.

As far as the "Dont talk about balance because they're balancing it." If you're gonna change something, of-course it should be talked about. That way the players and the devs cancome to a consensus on how they would like the change to go. We aint in politics here. We don't need to pass a bill to find out whats in it, after it blows up in our face. Its just a wall.

Problem is, if its not talked about, and Tynan changes it in some way that players dont quite like. Then we'll be right back here talking again. Only it'll be at a later period of time then right now. Me, i like to get shit out of the way early so I have more time to enjoy my voojeou gaems.

[Galileus]

This came out wrong. It's absolutely fine to talk about balance where it belongs. I simply don't think there is a lot of reason to in this example. I may be wrong, but I very much consider current situation a place-holder - as I've said, correlations between walls and nades is as simple as "there is nothing else raiders can throw out at you". The same goes for fire - if walls get fire-proof, a lot of early concepts cannot be showcased, because fire is suddenly a joke.

This all just tramples... I do not know what it tramples, but it does. And hard. Ideas presented here are great - but as it is now it's balancing a show-case after real-life logic and not after it's intended purpose. Bad move. So right now balancing is actually O.K. for all intended purposes, at least that's my take on it.

[linkxsc]

Well in all honesty it doesn't matter to me much if the do anything to the walls militarily themselves. What I'd like to see is a stronger more expensive wall to put around. But its a nonissue until .255 or w/e the next update is going to be.


As another advice to players with issues with wallas and getting your bases ownt with nades though, I've found another slightly more effective then my "studded wall".



Sadly the base I built it and used it on a lot was destroyed due to a battery fire during a raid.
But the idea is simple, the material you'd use to make your wall, the people to the north ar ethe assumed offenders (this is a "peaceful" map, so I've only had raids of 3-4 people so far, but they all come from the north around that rock face where I've got half my colonists.)

nice thing about this wall. Your injured colonists can easily retreat. The turrets have full targeting range. And if 1 of them starts taking much damage. you can pull a nearby recruit straight to it to repair it before it blows. Starting a new map where I'm gonna test out moving the outer wall out to the second tile on the turrets. (They'll have a shorter firing arc, but also have a shorter "fire received" arc. I hope.)

Also, about dem battery fires. DAMN do they get outta hand quick. Next base, I'm going to fill up a couple battery banks and seal them off (cut the power lines too) from the rest of the base so that doesn't happen again, and if it does, I can throw a conduit into the wall and keep the turrets running.

[Merry76]

Dont get me wrong, I like the fact that fire is a threat. The problem is only when concrete burns on its own almost faster than 2 or 3 colonists can put it out (which happens autmatically once 4-6 segments start to burn... it spirals out of control after that). If fires that get set to concrete (Bushfire, Lightning, Molotov or Incendiary launcher fuel peters out) slowly diminish on their own it probably would be ok. Or if the damage of the fire is only half as much as it currently is.

It is just too strong at the moment.

Same with grenades. They should be dangerous to people, maybe even have a by 1 bigger blast radius. But the things we have should be either called melter bombs (of Warhammer 40k fame) or not/barely do any damage to buildings. Frag grenads just dont damage buildings at all - IRL

[Galileus]

Melta bombs

I kind of don't see the problem... it may be a bad luck on your part or good luck on mine. I had some REAL freaky fires in my career and lost only two colonists to fire. Actually I lost these two because oh-so-beloved-Cherry caught on fire herself and set a drafted guy rescuing incapacitated guy on fire. And she survived. I blew her up with C4. But that's beside the point The point is - I can't really say anything here, I simply never had THAT much problem with fire. Sure, it's a huge threat and it gets out of control until you offer your firstborn to any shamanic god that will trade it for rain... but still. In scenarios I've encountered nerfed nades and inflammable walls would simply make it a laugh.

But, the good news is - nades will change a lot surely, there has to be quite a bit coming for tactics engine and warfare in general with problems encountered recently. And fire-fighting will change a lot for sure - because with deconstruction instead of selling, bigger constructions would simply be nonextinguishable (I made up that word) when on fire, and that would be a very bad thing.

[Semmy]

Melta bombs

I kind of don't see the problem... it may be a bad luck on your part or good luck on mine. I had some REAL freaky fires in my career and lost only two colonists to fire. Actually I lost these two because oh-so-beloved-Cherry caught on fire herself and set a drafted guy rescuing incapacitated guy on fire. And she survived. I blew her up with C4. But that's beside the point The point is - I can't really say anything here, I simply never had THAT much problem with fire. Sure, it's a huge threat and it gets out of control until you offer your firstborn to any shamanic god that will trade it for rain... but still. In scenarios I've encountered nerfed nades and inflammable walls would simply make it a laugh.

But, the good news is - nades will change a lot surely, there has to be quite a bit coming for tactics engine and warfare in general with problems encountered recently. And fire-fighting will change a lot for sure - because with deconstruction instead of selling, bigger constructions would simply be nonextinguishable (I made up that word) when on fire, and that would be a very bad thing.

Why would that be a bad thing.
It would make it so that you would have to think about how to build your building. If you build close to each other and don't think about possible fires its your problem (-;
Firefighting is working decent enough imho and i think tynan should focus on what he is doing now. I rather see the stuff added he is working on now than changing firefighting.

[Galileus]

Why would that be a bad thing.

Dispenser. 3x3. Fire? Gg.bb.
Solar panel. 4x4. Fire? Gg.bb.
Geothermal. 6x6. Fire? Gg.bb.
Any opther building 3x3 or larger in future? Gg.bb.

That's why And inb4 - forced damage is never good. Building catching on fire means you probably loose it? Fair enough, you can still work and try to negate the damage. Building catching on fire meaning you will loose it and can do nothing about it? Trolling.

[Semmy]

Why would that be a bad thing.

Dispenser. 3x3. Fire? Gg.bb.
Solar panel. 4x4. Fire? Gg.bb.
Geothermal. 6x6. Fire? Gg.bb.
Any opther building 3x3 or larger in future? Gg.bb.

That's why And inb4 - forced damage is never good. Building catching on fire means you probably loose it? Fair enough, you can still work and try to negate the damage. Building catching on fire meaning you will loose it and can do nothing about it? Trolling.

I don't really see why.
More often than not in real life stuff is lost because of a fire as they are unable to put it out or it is simply to big.
Ive never lost a dispenser to fire but i had plenty on fire. If you build them in a corner i can see you loosing them.
Leave some room around them and take a good look at how and where you place your stuff.

[Galileus]

I don't really see why.
More often than not in real life stuff is lost because of a fire as they are unable to put it out or it is simply to big.
Ive never lost a dispenser to fire but i had plenty on fire. If you build them in a corner i can see you loosing them.
Leave some room around them and take a good look at how and where you place your stuff.

Dispenser, 3x3 building:

X | X | X
X | X | X
X | X | X

Green tiles, you can fire-fight, because you can be next to them. Red tile - you can't. Because next to them is the dispenser itself. It caught fire? GG, bb, nothing you can do about it, even if its alone on Arizona desert. And don't get me started on 6x6 geotherm!

[Semmy]

I'm not 100% sure but maybe tynan can show up and say so.

I am quite sure he adjusted that in one of the latest builds. Or it was repairing.
One of those 2 or both can actually reach that centre.