Solution for killboxes??

[mc858]

I know we all love using them-its the only sure fire method to keep a base safe long term - but it also feels cheap too lol

How do you think the base defense method will evolve for the final build? im sure killboxes will be obsolete soon

IMO i think Tynan should make turrets A LOT stronger- but require them to be manned. Maybe multiple types of turrets could be built like machine gun,plasma,flame,etc- it would kinda make it a tower defence game during invasions but its better than a boring old killbox . IMO This could change the entire dynamic of a fight without changing the game too much.Thoughts?

[userfredle]

I never use killboxes and I play on cassandra challenge and extreme difficulty. its a completly different game of lets sit behind a wall and see how much we can farm till the ships built.

So my solution would just be to play without them!

You may as well just play on the lowest difficulty if you dont want anything to ever harm you, See its kinda like DF right now, with the bridge killing exploit, its only FUN if you make your own FUN,

[rexx1888]

kill boxes have their drawbacks. however, when your new to the game, its an easy to understand solution to the problem of "holy fuck how many tribals just spawned" and you need that. Eventually though, it becomes clear that kill boxes cost too much money and that you should move on to a new way of killing. At least, it would do that if we had any other tools. but the games in alpha, cant complain that there isnt enough content atm couse thats twatty. i appreciate what ive got

basically, this is a self solving problem. Kill boxes cost alot but are easy to understand. Once you have more options and an understanding of the game, you leave them behind. Its not a problem that needs solving, itll solve itself as Tynan makes more things

[leax256]

I find several Charge rifles firing at a wall of tribals are more than enough to get most to either die, get disabled or flee

[rexx1888]

its an example is all. yes, its easy to overcome without, but thats kind of my point aint it. you can do without them, but when you first start the game its a quick an easily understandable solution. just because some players refine it instead of move on from it doesnt change the fact that its behaviour that occurs for a reason

[Probe1]

Whether you build a killbox with turrets or use snipers to goad enemies into attacking early, you're still choosing where to fight.  Even if you're not fighting at the entrance to your base, your main force is still going to be somewhere defensible with plenty of cover rather than an open field.

Killboxes are an extension of this.  You choose the best ground to fight on and force engagements at that place.  You can do it with walls or by taking advantage of natural terrain.  Killboxes themselves aren't the primary issue, it's the AI being poor at choosing how to attack. 

Fixing the AIs attacking 'intelligence' is a big request.  Look at even modern real time strategy games and you'll find simplistic strategies that are mostly based on precoded patterns.  The developers could bandage the problem by adding more rocket launcher type weapons and weighting pawns carrying them to focus on walls.  Other pawns could halt temporarily while pawns with rocket launchers fire at walls.  That could 'fake' intelligence.  But the core problem, choosing your engagement, will still exist and the solution is to either increase the difficulty or give the AI huge and unfair advantages.

[Tobias]

Well spoken.
And i think the mechanism of the "killboxes" fit the scenario pretty well....

[RickyMartini]

Killboxes are a natural result of the game mechanics. If you play on Randy/Cassandra extreme all the time, the numbers of enemies are just overwhelming.
Not making killboxes just means you lose earlier.

If you play without killboxes, you still try to make your position as advantageous as possible. It almost ever results in a colony with only one entrance and a safe and covered space for your colonists to stand their ground whilst the enemies are out in the open.

So in my opinion, turrets are an expansion of this defense. Why not use them, if they are implemented into the game?

Repairing/building turrets after every raid is expensive and you can run out on steel so quick, thus making a killbox is perfectly balanced. You're not a beginner if you use it. Turrets are in the game, make your best out of it.

Edit: I basically repeated Probe1 ^^

[Listy]

Kill boxes are the logical answer.

Remember back to your first game of Rimworld. That moment where you build a turret and get attacked by Tribals.

You're sitting there smiling, thinking "you're in for it now sunshine!"
Then the tribals stop one tile outside of the turrets range and kill it with arrows and you're fancy gun turret doesn't get a shot off.

Everyone I've seen playing ,and myself included instantly builds a big wall round their colony with one door then aims their turrets at the door to force the baddies into range.

Then you have a primitive killbox, and you refine it from there, resulting in the current numbers.

I do wonder if a combat re-work isn't the answer. Something like the engagement range is the same for all weapons, but its just ROF and chance to hit that's the deciding factor.
The logic behind it is that at above a certain range your chances of being able to see and hit a man sized target are minimal, even if your weapon has a much further range.

For example during World War Two the general Fire-fight range was 300-400m. Even though the vast majority of soldiers had a weapon capable of going to twice that range. Why? Simply because they couldn't see the target to shoot at. Hence the modern reduction of weapon calibre. Even weapons with built in sights like the L85 aren't expected to shoot past about 500m.

That way turrets would be relevant again without a killbox.

This falls down when it comes to thrown weapons and weapons with optics. There again the only two weapons that fall into the powerful optics category are sniper rifles and charge lances.
Stuff like pistol calibres are also a problem (SMG's and pistols). But they could be tuned by giving a much higher ROF, and a slightly longer range than thrown weapons. The big issue is the majority weapon types at a range of 24 tiles.

[Kaballah]

Killboxes are a natural result of the game mechanics. If you play on Randy/Cassandra extreme all the time, the numbers of enemies are just overwhelming.
Not making killboxes just means you lose earlier.

That isn't true at all.  You get a lot of tribal dudes, who are unarmored and easy to kill in large numbers, but high tech enemies come in much smaller groups.  It's very helpful to have 2 or 3 turrets out as bait/to blow up and kill 5-10 invaders but a hands-free killbox is really unnecessary.

e: tbh the most obvious "solution" to people being heavily reliant on turrets is to nerf them or take them out entirely

[Andy Herod]

I always thought more complex enemies would be developed. Creatures that can climb walls, or stealthy enemies that bypass turrets etc.

[RickyMartini]

That isn't true at all. You get a lot of tribal dudes, who are unarmored and easy to kill in large numbers, but high tech enemies come in much smaller groups.  It's very helpful to have 2 or 3 turrets out as bait/to blow up and kill 5-10 invaders but a hands-free killbox is really unnecessary.

e: tbh the most obvious "solution" to people being heavily reliant on turrets is to nerf them or take them out entirely

With natural result I meant that people will figure out to make killboxes without the game actually requiring it. That's the definition of a "natural result".

I was just arguing that for the same game (Lets say Randy extreme) it's borderline efficient to make a killbox. For example without a killbox, you will have more trouble holding down 100+ tribals. You won't hold that without killbox. The downside is that killboxes can eat up thousands of chunks of steel and the time required to repair and rebuild killboxes is immense.

OP and others argued that making killboxes feels cheap and cheaty. I only argued that making killboxes fit naturally into the game and ideally aren't significantly better than a playthrough without a killbox.

[RemingtonRyder]

Speaking as someone who modded turrets to have upgrades, I think the problem is that they're eminently expendable. That is, you're relieved if they don't expire, but equally if they do blow up then you've lost something which can be replaced.

The upgrade path for my turrets (in Alpha 9) is fairly cheap. Well, with the exception of needing a charge rifle for the blaster turret path, I guess. Still, it's quite a setback to have to re-build them, and smelting turret wrecks to recover steel takes a long time. That being said, if you have the storage and the materials, you can have replacements ready to install in a frighteningly short time. So I may need to re-evaluate them.

[Rahjital]

Killboxes are definitely not the only way to survive. Merely making a big colony is a quite effective defense too, as the raiders will spread around and you'll be able to kill them one by one while they focus on vandalising your colony. You can also retreat from the colony when the raiders come and then simply pick them off with snipers, or use roof-drop traps, focus on luring raiders into melee, etc. Or you can simply not fight and run away.

People don't build killboxes because the game forces them to, they do it because it's the logical thing to do. And it works, so they don't have a reason to switch to something else.

[Kaballah]

I was just arguing that for the same game (Lets say Randy extreme) it's borderline efficient to make a killbox. For example without a killbox, you will have more trouble holding down 100+ tribals. You won't hold that without killbox. The downside is that killboxes can eat up thousands of chunks of steel and the time required to repair and rebuild killboxes is immense.

The game doesn't spawn 100 at a time on extreme in my experience, I dunno what to tell you.  The game simply is not all that hard even on the highest diff settings.  I have to look for ways to make it more difficult (hello MarvinKosh).

e: plus there's a new event this alpha where enemy factions can forgive you and stop being hostile, I'm not sure whether it's totally random or if it has to do with how many enemies you've killed