[A10] Better Inspection - Traps (v1.0) (2015-05-15)

[deadlydullahan]

Not sure but I can let him know and see what he thinks. I don't think there would be any real compatibility issues if he were to integrate this mod and I think it'd be a nice addition in his mod pack (course that's a personal opinion) but I'll pop on over to his modpack and let em know.

Please do. 

It's a first release upload so changes will be made as development continues with future updates, community feedback and eventual requests.

https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=11934.msg132590#msg132590

It's a fairly overpowered mod in his opinion and I can see where he's coming from. Maybe if the spike traps had a reload time of some sort?

Edit: For example, wooden spikes are weak and fragile but have a low reload time versus plasteel which are heavy but deadly and durable but have a very long reload time.

They have a melee cooldown time if that's what he is talking about default tickrate of 250 but can be adjusted?

And yes the way you described wood for example is just how it works... might need to adjust some stats on the research tree thou...

Could send him an big statistic file but will take some time to make one. 

If you go to his modpack and look at the suggestion he gave me, i think that would be a good place to start, maybe reduce damages done by certain traps or increase reload time. maybe reduce durability across the board. wood spikes last like 2-3 times before breaking. It's Trial and Error I guess

[Neocryptorian]

I'm just think spawning here now but does anything here make sense?

hmmm... durability is automatically calculated from the material used, so that might get some issues manipulating ingame.

Trigger speed, and the degradation rate can be controlled with code.
Not sure if I can make the degradation rate work perfectly with all different materials without declaring it for every material specific in code...

I might be able to define 3 types of degradation thou...
Example:
- Wood Type (MaxHitPoints/3) as it's that weak as mentioned
- Stone Type (% value or a set amount of damage)
- Metallic Type (same princips as stone type)

Due to the above thou there need to be some alterations with the cost of traps as they get too expensive as it looks for the moment...

From earlier mod the base value for damage is 5 but most traps lower it.
The Tick cooldown time often get increased depending on material used... (longer time for trap to trigger)

Might need longer times and higher damage... hmmm...


Ok, will read the suggested post and see if I can balance it out.

[Ninefinger]

There are a lot of things that need to be considered when it comes to balance for this mod, You can balance test it using dev mode like i had suggested on my modpack page where you set up a long hallway 2/3 the length of a standard map and use your best traps agains a raid of about 50 raiders, at least half of them shoudl be able to make it to the end with at least half health.

That is the dev mode test, then you need to test with a regular playthrough, how cumbersome it is to actually build enough traps to get to that point based on how much resources they cost or how rare the resource is to be able to get to that tier of trap. or how much power is required to run that many traps. If it is inconcievable to be able to power enough traps to kill a decent size raid that is one way to balance it. How fast the re-fire time is on the traps is something to consider too. but you have to try consider all of these things at once. And you have to have a goal in mind that it is extremely difficult to build enough traps based on either resource cost or if you base it on surface area and you can easily build lots of traps then the damage has to be considered either by re-fire rate or base damage and balance both. then it comes down to powering the traps if they are heavy power sink then you can get away with slightly more damaging traps. etc.

anyways hope this helps.

[Neocryptorian]

There are a lot of things that need to be considered when it comes to balance for this mod, You can balance test it using dev mode like i had suggested on my modpack page where you set up a long hallway 2/3 the length of a standard map and use your best traps agains a raid of about 50 raiders, at least half of them shoudl be able to make it to the end with at least half health.

That is the dev mode test, then you need to test with a regular playthrough, how cumbersome it is to actually build enough traps to get to that point based on how much resources they cost or how rare the resource is to be able to get to that tier of trap. or how much power is required to run that many traps. If it is inconcievable to be able to power enough traps to kill a decent size raid that is one way to balance it. How fast the re-fire time is on the traps is something to consider too. but you have to try consider all of these things at once. And you have to have a goal in mind that it is extremely difficult to build enough traps based on either resource cost or if you base it on surface area and you can easily build lots of traps then the damage has to be considered either by re-fire rate or base damage and balance both. then it comes down to powering the traps if they are heavy power sink then you can get away with slightly more damaging traps. etc.

anyways hope this helps.

Not sure how the traps for the moment can be non expensive thou as it's expensive to build without an "free metals mod". And resource loss is high when traps self destroy due to being horded by enemies... (Will look closer into this)

Will experiment with triggering times for a start too.

Good points indeed and you have given me much to think about and consider, while retaining base material values... might even post all trap statistics... have to sleep on this thou.

Thanks for the feedback 

[Ninefinger]

There are a lot of things that need to be considered when it comes to balance for this mod, You can balance test it using dev mode like i had suggested on my modpack page where you set up a long hallway 2/3 the length of a standard map and use your best traps agains a raid of about 50 raiders, at least half of them shoudl be able to make it to the end with at least half health.

That is the dev mode test, then you need to test with a regular playthrough, how cumbersome it is to actually build enough traps to get to that point based on how much resources they cost or how rare the resource is to be able to get to that tier of trap. or how much power is required to run that many traps. If it is inconcievable to be able to power enough traps to kill a decent size raid that is one way to balance it. How fast the re-fire time is on the traps is something to consider too. but you have to try consider all of these things at once. And you have to have a goal in mind that it is extremely difficult to build enough traps based on either resource cost or if you base it on surface area and you can easily build lots of traps then the damage has to be considered either by re-fire rate or base damage and balance both. then it comes down to powering the traps if they are heavy power sink then you can get away with slightly more damaging traps. etc.

anyways hope this helps.

Not sure how the traps for the moment can be non expensive thou as it's expensive to build without an "free metals mod". And resource loss is high when traps self destroy due to being horded by enemies... (Will look closer into this)

Will experiment with triggering times for a start too.

Good points indeed and you have given me much to think about and consider, while retaining base material values... might even post all trap statistics... have to sleep on this thou.

Thanks for the feedback 

No problem, there are definitely multiple ways of balancing something like this, the hard part is finding what numbers to tweak where and by how much. And the most annoying part is loading the game to test said changes multiple times lol, trust me im aware of how much a pain in the ass it is. And not to mention that what one person sees as balance another might not. One thing that is difficult for me is that i can not mod DLL files, otherwise  I would be able to help by making my own version of what I would think to be balanced and offer it as a guideline for you, however there is literally nothing i can change in your mod lol so best of luck and i hope I could at least help somewhat.

[Ninefinger]

Ok i just had a great idea but idk if its possible, if you can find a way to make is only so many number of a certain traps are allowed to be build at any given time in a world. You could make as many different traps as you could imagine, fire traps spike traps swinging bladed traps. IF you can only build a total of say 20 traps of any kind doesn't matter and then further make it so that you can only have max 5 fire traps, max 10 spike traps. etc but out af all traps total only 20 can be made. soon as one gets destroyed you should be able to place down any type of trap. Like i said idk if this is even possible.

[Adamiks]

Really great work! And btw i think this should be named "[MODADDON]" or "[SUB-MOD]" but not a [MOD].

Ok i just had a great idea but idk if its possible, if you can find a way to make is only so many number of a certain traps are allowed to be build at any given time in a world. You could make as many different traps as you could imagine, fire traps spike traps swinging bladed traps. IF you can only build a total of say 20 traps of any kind doesn't matter and then further make it so that you can only have max 5 fire traps, max 10 spike traps. etc but out af all traps total only 20 can be made. soon as one gets destroyed you should be able to place down any type of trap. Like i said idk if this is even possible.

Possible? Yes. Easy? No. DLL's required? Yes. I don't think he will gonna do it

[Ninefinger]

If its possible it needs to be done, this is the next evolutionary step into having numerous traps in the game all being perfectly balanced.

[deadlydullahan]

If its possible it needs to be done, this is the next evolutionary step into having numerous traps in the game all being perfectly balanced.

I'm not a mod expert from what I know it should be relatively easy to include a code that searches the maps cells for trap type and the # of them and then include a code for putting a ceiling limit on it and keeping track of how many there are within a map. The only hard or rather annoying part would be writing the code to keep track of each specific trap placed. Unless there's a way to keep track of the individual traps using a simple code that can separate them appropriately.

Edit: Of course we could always call Tynan in here and see what he thinks since from what his changelogs indicate, traps are sure to be in the next alpha release. Maybe he'd be interested in the spike trap idea and maybe has a way to do it without it being overpowered.

[Adamiks]

I'm not a mod expert from what I know it should be relatively easy to include a code that

No. This wouldn't be easy. Everything what requires DLL's isn't easy.

[deadlydullahan]

I'm not a mod expert from what I know it should be relatively easy to include a code that

No. This wouldn't be easy. Everything what requires DLL's isn't easy.

I messed around with DLL awhile back after doing some research myself and getting the basics of it, personally I didn't have much trouble with the basics. It may be difficult for some sure but not everyone. So to just say DLL isn't easy is discouragement to those who'd like to learn. Can it be difficult? Sure, it can be.

Anyways hope to hear from you Neo on how things are going.

[hector212121]

Can you upload a version WITHOUT ANY DOTS IN THE NAME?

My mac is recognizing it as a unrecognizable file extension.

[Wlala]

I want to ask a question.
The enemy will take the initiative to attack the trap or not?

[whoishigh]

Can you upload a version WITHOUT ANY DOTS IN THE NAME?

My mac is recognizing it as a unrecognizable file extension.

Then you need a program that can unzip .7z files

[Neocryptorian]

Can you upload a version WITHOUT ANY DOTS IN THE NAME?

My mac is recognizing it as a unrecognizable file extension.

Then you need a program that can unzip .7z files

Thanks for helping out, but this issue has already been taken care of by pm. (Will clarify the need for 7z file requirements in main post when done with current update...)

I want to ask a question.
The enemy will take the initiative to attack the trap or not?

The enemy may target the trap if it consider it hostile enough yes. Has seen this with the powered traps multiple times, due to there fast trigger rates inflicting enough damage to make them a target.