Suggestion & Discussion: The Colonist

[British]

If we start adding hand-held items other than weapons, there would indeed need to be items for every basic action (mining/building/growing crops/cutting herbs/cleaning blood/cleaning debris/... the list goes on).
If there's no inventory to be had (I actually would rather not), that means that there will be loads of equipment racks needed, with a shitload of tools there, since every colonist can do every action (allow me this shortcut).

Seems like a management hell (as is).

[AspenShadow]

Agreed. I'd rather the items/tools added to the Alpha be only weaponry/combat-based rather than for every little aspect of the game.

[Spike]

In my opinion, held items should be limited, as weapons currently are.  Carrying a medkit would let the player direct someone to bandage up someone on the battlefield, instead of simply carrying them to a bed to heal.  I wouldn't want to see something way too complex, like needing picks or drills to mine, hammers to build, etc, etc.  The basic work should not require any explicit item; however I could see some advanced items that give a substantial boost to work being done.  But that's just my opinion.

[SpaceEatingTrex]

If we start adding hand-held items other than weapons, there would indeed need to be items for every basic action (mining/building/growing crops/cutting herbs/cleaning blood/cleaning debris/... the list goes on).

In my opinion, held items should be limited, as weapons currently are.  Carrying a medkit would let the player direct someone to bandage up someone on the battlefield, instead of simply carrying them to a bed to heal.  I wouldn't want to see something way too complex, like needing picks or drills to mine, hammers to build, etc, etc.  The basic work should not require any explicit item; however I could see some advanced items that give a substantial boost to work being done.  But that's just my opinion.

I think Spike has the right idea here. British said inventory means there needs to be item requirements for basic tasks, but I don't think that's the case. Instead, all colonists could perform basic tasks at a default speed/effectiveness, but having specialized equipment could make them perform better. This way players don't have to micromanage everything, and they can make meaningful choices about what equipment to give which colonists. Choices like that add to the depth of the game, and the more depth it has the more interesting the stories will be.

With that being said, it is always important to look at both the advantages and disadvantages of an idea. British, if colonists don't need equipment for basic actions, what other disadvantages would we need to think about for a simple inventory system?

[Nero]

I think the aversion to micromanagement is stifling some of the cool ideas that could be implemented. I mean this is a management style game after all, unless I am missing something.

I like the idea of having the ability to equip armor and equipment besides just basic weapons. You don't need a lot of equipment racks for equipment in that case. You have a tool rack that is just generic and you can pick up tools for mining, building, farming, or other activities. Something similar to that. You won't have to make the tools separately, all you will have to do is make the tool rack/dispenser then it is assumed the tools are there. Unless you want to make the tools separately and I am all for that.

[British]

The (potential) problem is not the management, it's the micro-managements (notice the plural).
We're only discussing one component of the game, but there are many others out there being discussed as well, and I'm sure that for a significant part of those, there's some sort of micro-management suggested.
If every single of those components get their ways with adding micro-management (which may well be very fine individually), we will end up with a product bloated with loads of little things to do.
That might be fun for spreadsheets-lovers and such, but RimWorld, the way I understand Tynan wants it to be, is meant to be accessible.

While I may have exaggerated some points, that's how I see things, and that's why I'm always advocating not to go crazy on micro-management.
Tynan probably has an agenda on his own for those details, or maybe even an agenda about having an agenda for those details, but until/unless he gives a full statement on his vision, I'm going to continue my campaign against heavy micro-managements


Now back on topic...
I only have a problem with having a full-blown inventory, but having one slot for a weapon and one slot for an armor seems fine to me.
If you add tools for everything and expect them to all fit in one inventory rack, then you'll have to use some sort of menu to access the rack and pick the tool you want.
It's OK when you have a couple tools, but, as I hinted yesterday, if you have one tool for every action *one* colonist can take, then that access menu is going to get fat very soon, and that's not fun.
The way the racks are working now, is that they can only host *one* weapon, so you can see what's in the rack instantly.
Granted, when you get too many weapons, it can get crowded as well, though I don't think it can be compared on the exponentially-growing number of tools as colonists join in.

There's probably ways to go around the problem, of course.
You could for instance have only one accessible unit for each type of tool, so every colonist would ever need to pick that tool... but then, what's the point of having tools ?
Or maybe you could stack each type in a dedicated rack slot and display a number indicating the size of the stack...

[hoggerlivestwice]

Yes, I want to augment my colonists... Yes.

Would be epic sauce.

[British]

It would happen that there's already a dedicated thread about colonists... ain't that epic ?

[hoggerlivestwice]

It would happen that there's already a dedicated thread about colonists... ain't that epic ?

Also, we need full blown mechs, like giant walking machines, that'd be bad ass

we could find lost reckage or tech from the space ship that crash landed

yeah sweet

or maybe even survival bunkers we find underground or inside the earth
.

[hoggerlivestwice]

we need mechs and cybernetic implants, exo suits, crazy sci-fi stuff too.
and stuff like cows.

[Spike]

While I may have exaggerated some points, that's how I see things, and that's why I'm always advocating not to go crazy on micro-management.

Now back on topic...
I only have a problem with having a full-blown inventory, but having one slot for a weapon and one slot for an armor seems fine to me.
If you add tools for everything and expect them to all fit in one inventory rack, then you'll have to use some sort of menu to access the rack and pick the tool you want.
There's probably ways to go around the problem, of course.

I agree.  Part of the appeal of the videos is that it looks pretty simple - no need to worry about what tools you have, or needing to build a tool, or have the proper one equipped, in order to build stuff.  That type of complexity could easily be abstracted by having different tiers tied to structures.

The way I look at equipment slots is that it should enhance an action, not be required for it.  Look at combat - you CAN fight without any weapons... but if you equip something, you enhance your effectiveness.  Same concept for other actions.  If you would, lets say, equip a medkit then you could heal some damage on the battlefield instead of needing to rest in a bed.  Modified action.

As for tool racks in general, that could be abstracted easily to some kind of structure that gives a modifier.  Build a Workbench that is described as "being stocked with tools for any purpose", and all construction gets a 10% time/cost bonus.  Something like that, versus equipping a colonist with a hammer.  Or screwdriver.  Or welder.  Or pick.

[SpaceEatingTrex]

As for tool racks in general, that could be abstracted easily to some kind of structure that gives a modifier.  Build a Workbench that is described as "being stocked with tools for any purpose", and all construction gets a 10% time/cost bonus.  Something like that, versus equipping a colonist with a hammer.  Or screwdriver.  Or welder.  Or pick.

Although I agree with the idea that an inventory system should be kept simple and straightforward, I think replacing it with structures that give a global bonus might be going to far in the other direction. For instance, in the example Spike described above I would build a room off in a corner somewhere with a bunch of workbenches so that everyone magically gets a big bonus. If we decided to do something like this I think it would be better done with research than structures, i.e. research "laser picks" for more effective mining or etc. That still uses a global bonus system, but without the abusability of associating the bonus with a structure.

As far as Equipment Racks go, it is true that an inventory system would probably necessitate a bit more complexity there. However, I think as long as we implemented a simple interface for them it should still be intuitive for players. As an example, consider an Equipment Rack that holds nine items. Clicking on the rack could display its items. Here's a mock-up (rack image stolen from the wiki, thanks for keeping it updated British et. al):



Does that seem intuitive enough to be used by most of our players?

[Spike]

Does that seem intuitive enough to be used by most of our players?

I don't know, I won't be playing until next month.

[British]

That's a good point, Spike

Your example of expansion, SpaceEatingTrex, touches on the "access menu" I discussed in my previous post, so you have my answer already

[Spike]

It really boils down to how Tynan wants set it up, as we all know.  And there are benefits either way - I mean, in Dwarf Fortress, you have every aspect of clothing, including penalties (insanity) for not having any, which requires you to set up a full production chain of growing plants, to making thread, to making cloth, to finally making clothes.  But part of the appeal to Rimworld that I see is the simplicity of some things like that.  Instead of worrying about pants, I can focus on building a colony to house, feed and protect the colonists.

As for weapon management, some text or graphic menu like that would work.  I could also see scrapping the current system and adding a larger "Arms Vault" item (area or furniture), where all weapons are stored without regard to space, and then have some system for equipping colonists.  Actually, add the weapon slot onto the Overview window, and assigning it from there would work; it would also let you see what they are carrying easily.