Graphics

Started by Idlemind79, April 18, 2016, 08:55:19 PM

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hoochy

#30
Quote from: b0rsuk on April 20, 2016, 12:52:42 PM
Quote from: hoochy on April 20, 2016, 12:29:15 PM
A complex resource management and planning game would be the best selling game of all time if it had Prison Architect level graphics (core).
I suppose it would sell more than Angry Birds, too ?

Quotemost people need to know, easily, what they are looking at and I think Rimworld currently fails that test. I can say that at least for me.
Specifics please. I think "I don't know what I'm looking at" is a red herring in Rimworld. When you start, you're seeing only very basic things - some animals, plants, and a couple of scattered items. Rifles, medicine, wood, are not hard to figure out by looking at them. Survival rations and steel are not obvious. Plants which are harvested for fruit could be more obvious. Steel, silver veins in mountains are not obvious, but I doubt you would recognize a silver vein if you saw it in real life. Water is a bigger problem, it would benefit from some kind of ripple effect.

When you start constructing stuff, then - unless your memory is weak - you have the benefit of choosing the construction type first, so you're learning the way it looks at the moment you're placing it. Really, Rimworld is not a typical roguelike game where you're travelling through a generated world, encountering doors, chests, strange monsters. Vast majority of creatures you encounter are humans. Manhunter packs are labeled. Cargo pods rarely contain something that isn't meat, so you're not having strange items, objects, buildings thrown at you!

I had no problem learning what is what once I saw someone playing it and describing what he is doing it, I also had no problem playing it myself, mostly. I was just talking about my first impressions when I gave the game limited time, basically just look at it to see if I'm interested in it. ie What most people do when checking out a game to play. I didn't have this problem with Factorio even though its an arguably more complex game with "2d indie graphics".

If someone who has never played the game before can look at a screenshot and understand even half of what is on the screen then they deserve a medal. :) A game like Rimworld is like an ugly person with a good personality. If you take your time to get to know it, you realize there is a beautiful soul in there. That is true with most good complex games, but there are still improvements you can make to a game to make it visually more cohesive.

To pretend this game wouldn't be doing better, and have done a lot better if it had better graphics is a bit silly. It should go without saying. That doesn't mean the game isn't doing well atm, because obviously it is. And it will obviously do a lot more sales when it goes on Steam, even with its current graphics.  Factorio did 2 or 3 times their whole sales after a month on steam, though it has multiplayer which encourages Steam sales. Either way Tynan has been rewarded pretty well for a great game, and will hopefully continue to be.

Fluffy (l2032)

QuoteA game like Rimworld is like an ugly person with a good personality. If you take your time to get to know it, you realize there is a beautiful soul in there. That is true with most good complex games, but there are still improvements you can make to a game to make it visually more cohesive.
I don't quite get why this isn't enough. I've had relatively little issues figuring out what stuff is, and I'm a little confused on where you'd want to go to make it 'easier to understand' or alternatively prettier. Print room labels on the floors - just for screenshot sakes?

Silvador

Agreed. If you can't be bothered to put in the time to find out about the game, and judge it by first impressions alone, then your judgement is shallow and invalid.

"Never judge a book by its cover."

JonoRig

Factorio is your example? I can't work out what that game is from a couple screenshots.  I watched Nerd3 play it. And most gamers who see a game of the type or style they are interested in will research it further. For example, when KSP was released as EA on steam people were asking for aliens to fight and warp drives to travel to other solar systems and universes

If anything it'll be blessed not to have the impulse buyers and I'll informed crowd, as all they'll do is demand dumb stuff for the game.

Silvador

I watched the trailer for Factorio on Steam and honestly, it intrigued me. I admit that I didn't fully understand the precise mechanics of the game, or immediately recognise all the objects and methods used in it, but I understood the basic, core concept. Build and defend. That in and of itself was enough to pique my interests, along with its more unique theme of an overall industrial and factory style 'base'. It's a genre I already enjoy, and an interesting theme I've not seen before and would like to try.

It's aesthetics never once came up in my consideration of whether or not to try playing it.

Fluffy (l2032)

QuoteIf anything it'll be blessed not to have the impulse buyers and I'll informed crowd, as all they'll do is demand dumb stuff for the game.

This is the point I'm trying to make. RimWorld is great because of the relatively deep simulation it offers, not because of it's graphics. Given that there's a limited amount of resources to spend on the game, I'd rather have them go to the simulation. Increasing the amount of available resources would necessarily mean increasing the market for the game. Sure, graphics might pay for themselves, but it's a slippery slope towards 'dumbing down' the game to make it appeal to that elusive 'mass market' - something pretty much every AAA title suffers from.

All in all it's not a bad suggestion, and I'm sure particular areas of the games' graphics could use some attention - but for me it's far from a priority, and I have grown quite attached to the art style.

Finally, as skully pointed out, it also makes it so that the entry barrier for modders is really low. Virtually anyone with a modicum of coding and/or art skills can create mods, which makes for a nicely varied modding scene. To me, that is a massive part of the games' appeal!

And on a final note, there's quite a few successful indie and even some bigger titles (e.g. Factorio, anything Paradox) that would be truly incomprehensible from screenshots, and even let's plays usually keep you scratching your head about wtf is going on - it's researching and discovering things while you play that is actually part of these games appeal.

cultist

You have a point, but don't expect things to change much. Rimworld is a niche game, just like DF. I could never get into the latter because the graphics are way more abstract than Rimworld. Also, it's much more complex and does a poor job of explaining its complexity. Rimworld hits a sweet spot for me in terms of "deep simulation". It's complex (and A13 added a ton of depth to colonists), but not too complex. It has descriptive text for pretty much every object in the game, which I appreciate. It makes it easier to learn and identify things. And finally, it has a Sims-style mood/character building system that I absolutely adore. It's a weird mixed bag of a lot of ideas from different types of simulation games, and it's almost guaranteed not to have mass appeal. The people who love it will love it in spite of graphics, but most will simply not "get it".

hoochy

Quote from: cultist on April 21, 2016, 11:02:25 AM
You have a point, but don't expect things to change much. Rimworld is a niche game, just like DF. I could never get into the latter because the graphics are way more abstract than Rimworld. Also, it's much more complex and does a poor job of explaining its complexity. Rimworld hits a sweet spot for me in terms of "deep simulation". It's complex (and A13 added a ton of depth to colonists), but not too complex. It has descriptive text for pretty much every object in the game, which I appreciate. It makes it easier to learn and identify things. And finally, it has a Sims-style mood/character building system that I absolutely adore. It's a weird mixed bag of a lot of ideas from different types of simulation games, and it's almost guaranteed not to have mass appeal. The people who love it will love it in spite of graphics, but most will simply not "get it".

I don't think your conclusion is necessarily right. There are millions of gamers from the 80s and 90s that would love something like Rimworld if they could be told about it and could understand it better. Back when games used to be more complex instead of a rollercoaster guided point and click adventure. ;) Let alone the extra millions of new gamers that probably are similar. But of course it is niche in comparison to the whole game market, but if you can sell over 1 million copies then you are doing pretty well for yourself, especially an indie game. I think Rimworld as is could probably get there if it was on Steam. My opinions and comments are mainly about bringing it into that next level.

To say Rimworld wouldn't be better if the graphics were better, if there were proper animations for all the movements, etc is a bit silly. Of course it would be, but in the end it isn't *necessarily* to have a good game. If Rimworld had another competitor that was nearly exactly the same but with better graphics then it wouldn't be doing anywhere near as well. Just like anything coming out now has to somehow be better than Rimworld to be noticed in the same genre.

b0rsuk

Quote from: hoochy on April 23, 2016, 08:07:29 AM
If Rimworld had another competitor that was nearly exactly the same but with better graphics then it wouldn't be doing anywhere near as well. Just like anything coming out now has to somehow be better than Rimworld to be noticed in the same genre.
Towns ? Gnomoria ? Goblin Camp ? Maia (sci-fi colony game, 3D graphics) ? Castle Story (good 3D graphics)? Which of them has worse graphics ? They're all less popular than Rimworld. Many of them are also less developed, yet they are not new games. Almost as if making good graphics drained a lot of development effort...

hoochy

Quote from: b0rsuk on April 23, 2016, 09:00:11 AM
Quote from: hoochy on April 23, 2016, 08:07:29 AM
If Rimworld had another competitor that was nearly exactly the same but with better graphics then it wouldn't be doing anywhere near as well. Just like anything coming out now has to somehow be better than Rimworld to be noticed in the same genre.
Towns ? Gnomoria ? Goblin Camp ? Maia (sci-fi colony game, 3D graphics) ? Castle Story (good 3D graphics)? Which of them has worse graphics ? They're all less popular than Rimworld. Many of them are also less developed, yet they are not new games. Almost as if making good graphics drained a lot of development effort...

They aren't Rimworld in concept or gameplay though. If you had Rimworld as it is right now, yet with better graphics, who would choose the worse graphics option? People with crap PCs maybe? Animation and better graphics wouldn't necessarily be slower, but of course it takes more time to do them, and more money, which is why Rimworld doesn't have them. Not really sure why you are arguing with me unless you believe better graphics would make Rimworld worse, all other things being equal.

Limdood

Quote from: hoochy on April 23, 2016, 09:23:04 AM
Quote from: b0rsuk on April 23, 2016, 09:00:11 AMIf you had Rimworld as it is right now, yet with better graphics, who would choose the worse graphics option?

What kind of argument is this?  you were responding to soeone saying that graphics use up LOTS of dev time and money. 

There IS no rimworld as it is now with better graphics. 

If it had better graphics from the start, it wouldn't have the gameplay it does now.
If it starts getting better graphics now, then we're done getting new content for quite some time.

By all means, make a poll....would you rather the devs spend their future time on...
[ ]Graphics
[X]Gameplay

(you can see I already voted)

ReZpawner

Maia is and always was awful. Same with Towns and Castle-story. I regret buying them. Gnomoria doesn't have "better" graphics, and is no longer in early access. In fact, the only one of these that is remotely like Rimworld is Gnomoria, but it's also different enough to not really compete against eachother.
Looking at these titles, there's a clear correlation between 'bad' graphics and good gameplay, vs 'good' graphics and terrible gameplay.  I'd say that Tynan made the right call here.

Listen1

When you go with minimalistic graphics, they can come in 2 flavor. Appealing and repulsive. For me Dwarf Fortress and Gnomoria graphics are repulsive. I don't like to look at them. RimWorld is appealing.

I really like the way it feels, and has alot of room for improvment (even whole graphics mod) Imagine if all the vegetation trembles with the wind and get's wet with the rain?

Also, imagine the temperature of your gpu. Yeah...

panofduluth

I think the ART for rimworld is spot on. do not change. the ART for Mario back in the day was spot on as well. ive never looked at realistic graphics or graphics in general as a thing. if it matched the game style then the art is fine. no need for realism where the game dont need it. as for DF if everyone hates it because of the art everyone needs to try out "lazy newb pack". adds a lot of art and even some mouse controls ;) but alas i am playing rimworld instead of dwarf fortress purely because it is more user friendly. like i can use the mouse on everything if i want instead of using keyboard only. not because of the "graphics" i find exploring and figuring out what stuff is in a game as part of the game. every game. you are not expected to know what you are looking at from a screen shot. thats half he fun! figuring out what stuff is and how the systems work etc.

like someone else stated other games spent to much time on graphics(probably) its a shame towns never got finished and hasnt been updated in a long time. gnomaria is shallow compared to RW and DF and only tiny tiny updates happen for gnomaria what? once a year?

I would much prefer the production focus to be on the simulation and the stories it tells. plus like i said for me any way the ART to RW is perfect for what it is. i dont need to see feet and knees moving and hands moving back and forth i think it might look goofy but maybe tynan works it out i would be ok with it as long as the art matched the game. i have faith in tynans choices as a developer thus far.