Transgender bathroom arguement.

[milon]

Adding to what Skissor said, gender is certainly more complicated that looking at the outside of the body.

Doctors in my country (USA) used to shout "It's a girl!" or "It's a boy!" when a woman gave birth.  They don't anymore.  Sometimes infant anatomy is vague (small male genitals and large female genitals look identical), and sometimes there's a been developmental anomaly that leaves doctors scratching their heads.  Doctors now clean the baby and take a close look before announcing gender - if they do announce it at all.

Also, it's rare, but sometimes a human being with an XY chromosome set is immune to testosterone.  The presence of testosterone in utero is what triggers development as a male, and without it we would all develop as female - unless you're immune to it (which I believe means a lack of testosterone receptors).  The result is a human being who looks and functions purely as a female, but a genetic test reveals they're technically male.  And that's not even touching on people who have 3 chromosomes, like XXY.  What then? 

And biggest issue is you are tying legal status to what someone CLAIMS. This is extremely dangerous as theres absolutely 0 verification that can be done. All you need to do is claim, and that is it. Even if you have raped dozens of women, have an ankle bracelet, just got released from jail, none of that matters in this rule so long as you SAY "I am transgender". That is hands down my biggest problem, and nobody has addressed this. And no, saying "People won't do that", is not an acceptable answer.

I had to quote this. How the HELL can you get a logic so biased as that ? This is beyond bias. It's like you have been brainwashed to believe that Transgender are beast/criminal by default.

@Kegereneku, I could be mistaken, but I don't think mumble is saying they're criminals.  I think he's saying there are criminals who aren't transgender who will say they are in order to have access to a bathroom they really shouldn't be in.  It's still a spurious argument - by the same logic, a transgender person (really, ANY person) could also enter the "wrong" restroom (really, ANY restroom) for nefarious reasons just by saying or not saying certain things.

[Kegereneku]

@Kegereneku, I could be mistaken, but I don't think mumble is saying they're criminals.  I think he's saying there are criminals who aren't transgender who will say they are in order to have access to a bathroom they really shouldn't be in.  It's still a spurious argument - by the same logic, a transgender person (really, ANY person) could also enter the "wrong" restroom (really, ANY restroom) for nefarious reasons just by saying or not saying certain things.

I've re-read his entire post to make sure nothing was lost in the quote.
Yes, I know that's the first layer of what he said, but I don't see how he could not be implying more than that (both on the social construct and biological aspect).

He spent a while building a CLAIMS of men biological urge to "inevitably lead" to rape, next a claim of gendered bathroom to be "protection against inevitable odds".
Following the double standard that 100% female-looking trans somehow wouldn't get raped if forced in men's bathroom, probably aided in that he don't seem to think of trans as anything but men/women in disguise (thus denying any tidy-bit operations or intent to be indistinguishable of target gender from being fact).
Then come the rapist part, where all his previous constructed-view of what a transgender is(n't) are used to assemble "men will rape" and "men>fem trans never stopped being men" into a fallacious "transgender into other bathroom will inevitably become criminal".

Even if that's accidental. It is very worth pointing out, either to clear off a misunderstanding or to deconstruct a belief.

As I said a while ago, I consider there's very subjective social construct (society, normalcy, naturalism...) that are being forced into the debate despite being actually -irrelevant- if you take the most critical and practical perspective.

On the topic of transhumanism we can easily come up with a lot of hypothetical situation that our(~developed country) current code of ethics couldn't deal with.

Edit : In case that wasn't clear, I consider the social recognition of whether a trans is identifiable as such to be irrelevant by definition : a trans intend to SWITCH, this is a different case than someone wanting to be Something ELSE (see my point about third gender), and all these cases are easy to classify in practical terms

My 2 cents.

Men are men. Women are women. It does not matter what you 'think' you are, if you have a penis, you are male. You use the Mens bathroom even if you 'identify' (Delusion) as something else.

By your logic people who have penis/vagina transplant do in fact change gender and stop having "delusion problem".

And if you insist on "what it was first", then causally speaking, everybody was first "female" before changing to male due to DNA.
So, since our very growth include a change from physically female to male. Then by this logic we are all female with 50% of delusion.

[Pactrick Willis]

My 2 cents.

Men are men. Women are women. It does not matter what you 'think' you are, if you have a penis, you are male. You use the Mens bathroom even if you 'identify' (Delusion) as something else.

By your logic people who have penis/vagina transplant do in fact change gender and stop having "delusion problem".

And if you insist on "what it was first", then causally speaking, everybody was first "female" before changing to male due to DNA.
So, since our very growth include a change from physically female to male. Then by this logic we are all female with 50% of delusion.

By your logic, then, everyone was really carbon before anything. Null and void.

I'm saying that naturally, you are male and female. I feel we are treating a mental issue wrong, its like allowing little children to thrown temper tantrums instead of teaching them not to.

[RickyMartini]

I'm saying that naturally, you are male and female. I feel we are treating a mental issue wrong, its like allowing little children to thrown temper tantrums instead of teaching them not to.

If you were to ask the medical community as to what the best and preferred treatment was, would you accept their response? Would you accept it when a medical professional told you that gender reassignment is the best treatment for it?

I would, because I trust the community of medical professional, it's the only rational thing to do. So, would you?

[Pactrick Willis]

I'm saying that naturally, you are male and female. I feel we are treating a mental issue wrong, its like allowing little children to thrown temper tantrums instead of teaching them not to.

If you were to ask the medical community as to what the best and preferred treatment was, would you accept their response? Would you accept it when a medical professional told you that gender reassignment is the best treatment for it?

I would, because I trust the community of medical professional, it's the only rational thing to do. So, would you?

This same 'medical professionals' recommended blood letting and leeches for a cold 500 years ago; Sometimes they are off.

May I also remind you, some don't- read http://www.wsj.com/articles/paul-mchugh-transgender-surgery-isnt-the-solution-1402615120

[RickyMartini]

Oh right, so you're the type of person who thinks the medical community is simply wrong because 500 years ago some things were made wrong? Okay, do you know it better than most doctors then? You do realize that leeches can be therapeutical still, right?

Are you also one of those people who don't trust the scientific community of biologists about the theory of Evolution? Or the scientific community of physics about the Big Bang? I mean, 1000 years ago we thought the earth was flat, so do we simply dismiss all the geography teachers then?

[Pactrick Willis]

Oh right, so you're the type of person who thinks the medical community is simply wrong because 500 years ago some things were made wrong? Okay, do you know it better than most doctors then? You do realize that leeches can be therapeutical still, right?

Are you also one of those people who don't trust the scientific community of biologists about the theory of Evolution? Or the scientific community of physics about the Big Bang? I mean, 1000 years ago we thought the earth was flat, so do we simply dismiss all the geography teachers then?

I never said that- simply that sometimes their treatment methods can be wrong, especially in a new(ish) disorder.

[RickyMartini]

I never said that- simply that sometimes their treatment methods can be wrong, especially in a new(ish) disorder.

You implied it. To my question whether you would agree with the medical community, your answer was "Well they sometimes are wrong." So yes, you're implying you disagree with the majority of doctors because they "might be off". So then my question is, if you really disagree, who knows it better? People who are not doctors? Yourself?

[milon]

I never said that- simply that sometimes their treatment methods can be wrong, especially in a new(ish) disorder.

That's both unhelpful and misleading.  Yes, doctors can be wrong.  But so can patients.  And you can be wrong too.  I could be wrong.  Anyone can be wrong.  By putting the spotlight of 'potential wrongness' on a subset of humanity you're communicating the assumption that that group is more wrong (or more likely to be wrong) than the rest.  Which is why your statement was unhelpful and misleading.

[RickyMartini]

Well put milon, I just generally don't like it when somebody brings forth the argument that "The group of experts for X cannot be trusted with the topic X." So then who can? Somebody who's not an expert on the topic?? How does that make sense?

[Listen1]

Well put milon, I just generally don't like it when somebody brings forth the argument that "The group of experts for X cannot be trusted with the topic X." So then who can? Somebody who's not an expert on the topic?? How does that make sense?

This shows up alot in my country, I believe in here we have a majority of people that would rather trust the internet and do a home made treatment than going to a doctor.

I get it, I once had a Synus crisis and the doctor just gave me paracetamol, sometimes they are just plain stupid, but that was a general doctor at 3am.

But We have to trust the health specialists that can help us, not trusting that drinking "cachaça" with honey and ginger will help you get over Influenza H1N1

[Kegereneku]

To recenter the debate :

I'm saying that naturally, you are male and female. I feel we are treating a mental issue wrong, its like allowing little children to thrown temper tantrums instead of teaching them not to.

I never said that- simply that sometimes their treatment methods can be wrong, especially in a new(ish) disorder.

I see two flaws :
1) You assume that Nature adhere to your personal vision of it. But people modifying themselves to be whatever they want is part of nature and so, natural. It's been a while since Homo Sapiens Sapiens lived as tribes with no concept of "family" or "gendered bathroom", but the use of fire, the invention of tools, clothes, and the abandon of tribes-based lifestyle was is is still all Natural.
2) I won't disagree that transgendering is a distinct mental state, but your claim that it is a "disorder" (in what I assume the pejorative way) is arbitrary.

Wikipedia def :
""A mental disorder (also called a mental illness,[1] psychiatric disorder, or psychological disorder) is a diagnosis, most often by a psychiatrist, of a behavioral or mental pattern that may cause suffering or a poor ability to function in life""

Transgender don't fit this definition anymore than the common person. Many live as healthily than any other persons or god-fearing great ape.
At least, when they aren't being persecuted by people with behavioral or mental pattern that make them incapable of accepting change, cause suffering to them and other, and lead them to be unadapted to life in a socially and technologically evolved society.

In short,
The pressure from anti-LGBT people cause more problems than the existence of atypical persons.

[Pactrick Willis]

To recenter the debate :

I'm saying that naturally, you are male and female. I feel we are treating a mental issue wrong, its like allowing little children to thrown temper tantrums instead of teaching them not to.

I never said that- simply that sometimes their treatment methods can be wrong, especially in a new(ish) disorder.

I see two flaws :
1) You assume that Nature adhere to your personal vision of it. But people modifying themselves to be whatever they want is part of nature and so, natural. It's been a while since Homo Sapiens Sapiens lived as tribes with no concept of "family" or "gendered bathroom", but the use of fire, the invention of tools, clothes, and the abandon of tribes-based lifestyle was is is still all Natural.
2) I won't disagree that transgendering is a distinct mental state, but your claim that it is a "disorder" (in what I assume the pejorative way) is arbitrary.

Wikipedia def :
""A mental disorder (also called a mental illness,[1] psychiatric disorder, or psychological disorder) is a diagnosis, most often by a psychiatrist, of a behavioral or mental pattern that may cause suffering or a poor ability to function in life""

Transgender don't fit this definition anymore than the common person. Many live as healthily than any other persons or god-fearing great ape.
At least, when they aren't being persecuted by people with behavioral or mental pattern that make them incapable of accepting change, cause suffering to them and other, and lead them to be unadapted to life in a socially and technologically evolved society.

In short,
The pressure from anti-LGBT people cause more problems than the existence of atypical persons.

http://publisher.attn.com/sites/default/files/suicide%20attempts%20williams%20institute.png

[RickyMartini]

Yes the suicide rate is high, so?

[KillTyrant]

Who really cares. Trans people were using what ever bathroom before and no one really cared until some law was passed protecting their use and target jumping on the train of announcing how progressive they are. There is alot of people who are confused and have some primitive thoughts on how society should be run. I dont really see bathroom use as a huge issue. If the person taking a shit next to me has a penis or a vagina, really doesnt mean much to me after I wash my hands and leave the restroom.