Equipment HP and quality redundant ?

[b0rsuk]

Equipment HP goes down with damage and use. This reduces its effectiveness and makes colonists unhappy.

Quality of equipment also reduces effectiveness, but HP has a big effect on it.

I find the minigame of determining what's better: a 57% good kevlar vest or 86% poor one tedious. My colonists are bad at it, and in any case they seem care about HP only.

To my knowledge Tynan and other devs are not fans of repairing equipment because it would cause extra micromanagement and clutter.

Then why not merge equipment HP and quality ? HP could be used internally, but instead of HP visibly going down quality would drop. Something starts as legendary, ends up as awful eventually. I just fail to see what separate HP and quality adds to the game.

[RawCode]

Yes.
Using two values that does absolutely same thing is redundant.

It will be logical and effective to have HP only, higher quality items instead will start with higher HP and degrade over time.

This will make system simple and effective.

[Kashipoi]

Quality is mainly a thing for trade/attractiveness for the most part I think. And removing it would make skilled builders/artists kind of less useful though wouldn't it?

It's really strange how apparently no one knows how to mend clothes or fix up guns though.

[b0rsuk]

How about this:

Legendary 100-90% HP
Masterwork 90-80% HP
Excellent 80-70% HP
Superior 70-60% HP
Good 60-50% HP
Normal 50-40% HP
Poor 40-30% HP
Shoddy 30-20%% HP
Awful 20% HP and less

[Nickvr628]

They are not redundant. Quality determines the stats of an object. Stats are things like accuracy, heat/cold modifier, armor percentage, etc. So a legendary sniper rifle is going to be god-tier for accuracy.

HP determines how pristine the items are, and as they take damage (clothes take damage when shot, items take damage when left outside, etc) they start to deteriorate. HOWEVER this does not mess with the stats of the object, the only time durability matters is for clothing. Once clothes drop below 50%, you start to get negative mood buffs.

TL;DR: Quality matters more than HP, but low HP clothing will give mood debuffs. 

[skullywag]

Erm I could be wrong but a poor 100% hp rifle is more accurate than a poor 20% hp rifle.

Just checked the code all ranged weapon stats have a base including a StatPart_Health, so accuracy is directly effected by health of the item.

[Miner_239]

Doesn't a masterwork 40% sniper rifle still better than a shoddy 100% sniper rifle?

If it ever changes, I'd like to see better quality items to have more max health. Makes sense for a poorly crafted item to break apart sooner than a well crafted one. A good clothing should last longer than a patchwork clothing.

[RawCode]

@Nickvr628
Are you kidding or trolling?

Code Select Expand

        <factorAwful>0.7</factorAwful>
        <factorShoddy>0.8</factorShoddy>
        <factorPoor>0.93</factorPoor>
        <factorNormal>1</factorNormal>
        <factorGood>1.05</factorGood>
        <factorSuperior>1.1</factorSuperior>
        <factorExcellent>1.2</factorExcellent>
        <factorMasterwork>1.35</factorMasterwork>
        <factorLegendary>1.5</factorLegendary>

HP and quality are just numbers inside formula:
basevalue * HP * qualityrate == result

basevalue is 100, HP is 100%, item is legendary
100 * 1.00 * 1.5 == 150
HP is 50%
... = 75

Conclusion, legendary item on 50% as good as SAME item of awful quality on 100% period

"sway" for quality is (0.7 to 1.5) or 0.8
"sway" for HP is 1.0

HP have 20% greater effect on item performance.

For this reason, you can't just tell, is X(Y) item better then C(V) item without memorizing quality offsets and performing multiplication.

[Juan el Demgrafo]

Having to go to the stats for the item so we can determine whether something is better than another doesn't feel right given that he gives us an outside variable that seems like it should be enough to determine relative quality. I support in combining the hp and quality scales.
I feel that a lower quality thing should deteriorate faster than a high quality. Maybe we could incorporate something sorta like the Richter scale where each quality level has x more hp than the last?

[b0rsuk]

One more thing remains: item material.
So maybe instead of merging HP and quality have an aggregate score based on the 3 stats ? Items would be shown as:
Parka (great)
Parka (nice)
...

[skullywag]

I determine quality to be the finish of an item, how good it looks. I have had beautiful looking guns in my time (irl), some of which shoot terribly due to having awfully cared for internals (An excellent rifle with 10% HP one might say)

[RawCode]

Sadly, it does not matter is your gun beautiful or not when you just trying to survive in wild...

Some crafter trying to craft some item on some bench:

Crafter effective skill = 10 (equal to skill level multiplied by manipulation score)
Item difficulty = 2 (all items have base HP of 100, difficulty just factor for skill calculation)
Material quality = 1 (simple material, like cloth)
Bench quality = 1 (just bench with simple stool)

Result in "GOOD" item, that, actually just Parka(500 (10\2*100*1*1))

Simple - yes
Easy to understand - yes

What about material system - good cloth result in good parka, bad cloth result in bad parka, no matter how skilled tailor is.

[nobrainer]

Sadly, it does not matter is your gun beautiful or not when you just trying to survive in wild...

Well I guess it might matter if you're trying to sell that gun to either buy a better one, or buy food to survive a very badly timed blight.

Correct me if I'm wrong but item quality affects certain stats of some items:

• better chairs have higher comfort multiplier;
• better beds have higher comfort and rest effectiveness multipliers;
• better medical beds have higher treatment and immunity gain speed:

So I'm guessing that Tynan is thinking about making it so that both HP and quality matter in certain ways but the systems/content aren't in a stage where they feel unique yet.

I think we should let the development continue to have a better picture of what is Tynan's intended design instead of jumping to conclusions this early.

[RawCode]

all offsets are stored in XML and you can check\memorize everything you need.

[quxzcover]

i agree that these should just be combined. if someone is bad at crafting and makes something shoddy, it should start at 20%.
both variables make huge impacts, but it would be easier to manage one of them rather then two. if they were combined, obviously a slower deterioration rate would be needed.
also this should be a suggestion thread.