Cave Physics. (Temperatures need re-balancing for caves) [RIMWORLD]

[Jorgan47]

Now as the title suggests, I have had an issue with cave temperatures in the game where in the summertime it is 86 degrees Celsius outside the cave and in-side the cave it is 84/83 degrees Celsius. WHAT? The hottest a cave has ever gotten in the real world that I can find is 70  and that is because of hydrothermal fluids running deep within the cave at close. I  AM NOT CRITICIZING THIS GAME!! I am annoyed that my guys are dying of heatstroke in a FREAKING CAVE!!!!!!! and I want the developers to take this into consideration. Anyone who took physics in high school should know this about caves.
Now you may be saying:

1.) Well it's closer to the planets surface so that's why it's warmer. WRONG if that was the case then it IS NOT a cave.

2.) Well it may be close to Volcanic activity. To the best of my knowledge this game does not have Volcanoes, on top of that this game does not allow you to dig down into the earth.

3.) who cares it is just a game. I care that is why I'm trying to fix a game changing problem while it is still in it's alpha state.

4.) Well then if you hate the game so much then don't play it. WRONG!!!!!!! I paid 30 FREAKING dollars for this game and I want my opinion to be heard even if I have to deliver this to the developer in person!

Sources:
https://www.nps.gov/wica/learn/nature/cave-meteorology.htm
wonderopolis.org/wonder/how-cool-are-caves/

[Noobshock]

Follow your heart man

[RemingtonRyder]

It's a bug that has been fixed (for Alpha 15, I think).

[Listen1]

"Cool" - I love myself for this pun.

Since we don't have Z levels into the game, it's hard to know how deep into the mountains you are. We must agree that if you are just one or two tiles away from the open space, the temperature should be about the same as the surface. Now, if you are several tiles inside a mountains, it should (I'll talk celcius) maintain itself bellow 25°C.

In A14 this temperature difference seems lower than in A13. On the last Alpha I remember my mountain base didn't use coolers.

[Gadg3t]

it is 86 degrees Celsius outside the cave

in-side the cave it is 84/83 degrees Celsius.

I am annoyed that my guys are dying of heatstroke in a FREAKING CAVE!!!!!!!

The hottest a cave has ever gotten in the real world that I can find is 70  and that is because of hydrothermal fluids running deep within the cave at close.

The official highest recorded temperature is now 56.7 C (134 F), which was measured on 10 July 1913 at Greenland Ranch, Death Valley, California, USA.

Source: http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/highest-recorded-temperature

...Whats wrong? Your cave is cooler then your outside temp...

I post the world record cause if you want to compare your outside temp to the real world like you are doing for your cane temp then...there are other issues? Probably related to not being on earth?

(There is a temperature bug in game but unless the numbers here are wrong I'm not sure what you're informing us about)

[StormySunrise]

A little searching can go a long way
https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=16098.0

Esm's mountain temp.

AFAIK Caves dont have physics(unless you are talking about cave dynamics)

[milon]

Yeah, in A14 there were tweaks to how temperature equalization happens, which is why it's different again.

And this isn't (necessarily) Earth, remember.  This is a random planet on the rim of the galaxy.  It doesn't necessarily have to follow Earth's trends. 

[brcruchairman]

Gadg3t, I don't think the issue is that it's crazy-hot outside the cave, I believe the issue is that it's warm outside (though it is; 83 *C? Good lord, Jorgan, that's a hot place!) but rather that the temperatures are so similar inside the cave. A limited-access (i.e., few to no open entrances to the surface, extremely high percentage of surface area underground) complex carved into a mountain should function in many respects like a cave. You rightly point out that high temperatures are not uncommon, but hot caves ARE uncommon. For instance, the hottest cave in the world is the Cave of Crystals, which only reaches 58 *C¹, and that only reaches such temperatures due to resting atop a fault line, and having relatively direct access to the Earth's mantle.

A more reasonable thing to look at is a cave with high average temperatures; Dallol, Ethiopia is currently the hottest inhabited place in terms of long-run average temperature, averaging 35 *C over six years². Caves there, the Sof Omar Caves, are described as "cool"³, and though I wasn't able to find an exact temperature, this suggests to me that we can reliably conclude that even in consistently and extremely hot environments, the insulation provided by a surrounding of rock, conducting heat into the crust of a planet will render any subterranean complex of sufficient size cool. Note that the Sof Omar Caves are ALSO in a geologically active zone, and still maintain a cool temperature.

I believe, then, what Jorgen is talking about is not a bug, or a feature which is broken, but rather a feature which is lacking; as StormySunrise pointed out, caves don't seem to have their own thermodynamic system, although they should. Instead of equalizing temperature to the outside, which seems to be the baseline of the behavior, perhaps equalizing it instead to that world's global temperature (albeit slowly) would be more appropriate; in this way you can have natural insulating factors indoors for both hot and cold environs, though if we use Earth's ice caves as a model, it may only work so far; ice caves do tend to be colder than their surface temperature.

In conclusion, I agree with Jorgen that it would be nice to have a mechanism whereby any tile with an "overhead mountain" roof should leak or absorb heat differently, specifically having an equilibrium temperature (all else being equal) significantly cooler than the surrounding environs.

¹: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_of_the_Crystals
²: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallol,_Ethiopia
³: http://www.ethiovisit.com/sof-omar-caves/43/

[loc978]

little gripes like this is what the modding community started up for. Here's what you need to fix this issue:


e's small mods (mountain temp) github direct link

and CCL ... github direct link


so this isn't exactly a bug, it's just an incomplete part of the simulation.

[Boston]

-ahem-

https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=16098.0

Specifically, Mountain Temp

[Boston]

What do you mean, "follow Earth's trends"? Physics are physics, they don't change based on what planet you are on.

[brcruchairman]

Yes, Boston. StormySunrise posted that just before me. It's an excellent workaround, but at least for purists like me who for absolutely no reason at all refuse to mod the game, the notion is that this is something worth putting into vanilla. All the same, thank you for your contribution; not everyone is as stubborn as I am, and anyone dissatisfied with the current temperature mechanics can find an elegant solution in the mod you linked to.

[Reviire]

What do you mean, "follow Earth's trends"? Physics are physics, they don't change based on what planet you are on.

Yes, and physics don't just go "This cave will be under 25 degrees!". If the planet is closer to the sun, or has much higher volcanic activity than normal, physics would make the caves hotter, because the planets underground temperature is hotter. I don't think you understand physics.

This planet is different, it could be nothing like Earth under the surface.

[Boston]

What do you mean, "follow Earth's trends"? Physics are physics, they don't change based on what planet you are on.

Yes, and physics don't just go "This cave will be under 25 degrees!". If the planet is closer to the sun, or has much higher volcanic activity than normal, physics would make the caves hotter, because the planets underground temperature is hotter. I don't think you understand physics.

This planet is different, it could be nothing like Earth under the surface.

Take a look at this thread:

https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=22837.0

In a geologically active location on Earth, where outside temperatures regularly reach 35 degrees C, you can go into a cave system and have the temperature be comfortable.

Insulation is a thing, no matter where you go.

[Reviire]

What do you mean, "follow Earth's trends"? Physics are physics, they don't change based on what planet you are on.

Yes, and physics don't just go "This cave will be under 25 degrees!". If the planet is closer to the sun, or has much higher volcanic activity than normal, physics would make the caves hotter, because the planets underground temperature is hotter. I don't think you understand physics.

This planet is different, it could be nothing like Earth under the surface.

Take a look at this thread:

https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=22837.0

In a geologically active location on Earth, where outside temperatures regularly reach 35 degrees C, you can go into a cave system and have the temperature be comfortable.

Insulation is a thing, no matter where you go.

35C isn't really that high. Tell me, how do you know the surface Rimworld isn't meters away from thousands of kilometers of magma? I know how insulation works, but you're assuming that all factors are identical to Earth, when they're all unknowns. Plus, you're ignoring air ventilation. An open cave will be hot, if hot air is able to pass through it easily.

Also then there's game limitations, if you want to lower the temp of your cave, put a set of doors. Then put another set of doors behind that. As far as the game is concerned, i'm pretty sure your best insulation is your smallest bit. Having a giant cave, then a 1 thick wall and a door at the entrance, will cause temperature to equalize very quickly.

An airlock out the front and some thick walls will keep the inside temperatures around 24-28C