Should body types and gender actually have an effect on melee and shit?

[pfhorrest]

@PFHOREREST : comparing random people isn't scientific though. Your comparison of 2 people means absolutely nothing scientifically, and is borderline offtopic. What is gained by comparing the 2, scientifically?

Hard caps on creation of charecters is NOT what I wanted, because rimworld doesn't even have that, it has generation.

Scenario A is actually very different because male / female is not a factor in abilities at all, JUST like I said about body types.

If we scientifically test the following :
-gender
-body shape
-skin color

where all other variables are the same...we get the results that gender, body shape, and skin color hold 0 effects mechanically.

This is why I said the kickboxer / marine comparison was bad, because it purposely includes other variables. Thats unscientific... Lets watch the variables.. ...for SCIENCE!~ 

It's not necessarily as unscientific as you think, the "scientific" approach, according to you, would be to use averages and/or medians of populations in aggregate. In doing so, you take away the influence of other variables. You still haven't addressed the issue of the variance between individuals. Even on 21st century Earth you can see this variance due to environmental factors and genetics. Average male and female height varies significantly according to race and country of origin. Improper nutrition and genetic factors might make men from a certain region be short with a small frame and lower bone density. While it is true that women from this region will be, on average, proportionally shorter and weaker than the men from that region, it doesn't mean that women from another region can't be physically larger and more capable in every single way than the men in the impoverished region of different genetic characteristics. I like to think that Rimworld character generation, although it doesn't hint at these regional (perhaps even planetary - think gravity, availability of food & water, environmental factors like atmosphere) differences, implicitly takes this into account.

[pfhorrest]

@mumble:

To give you a further example, if Rimworld character generation allowed you, say, to select different planets or occupations (the marine example) to filter the rolls you get, then I could support a case where the trends of any given planet or occupation tended towards women having lower strength-based skills, etc.

[Anomaly]

Daemon - Remember that I am referring to the NPC body types in the game rather than real people here so I'm not speaking of realism, gender etc just how to visually represent character stats using the simple models seen in Rimworld.

To use you as an example - we cant see your hard earned carpenter's arms or that they are better than a bodybuilder's.  The NPCs don't even have arms   I want some way to represent you can throw a punch though, so you get that V shape body in game. 

Me?  I do lawn work so I'm trim but not anything special in strength. Id get the 0 shape. Though its wintertime so Maybe a I need a little o over the stomach to show I'm getting out of shape.

It could be cool to see some more base models in the game. Even with simple shapes you can show if a person is short or tall and if they are fat, lean, strong or flabby versions of each.

Come to think of it, there isn't anything to show if a person can shoot. Time for some Eastwood style gunslinger eyes perhaps?

[mumblemumble]

Pfhorrest, you are correct that comparing 2 marines male and females doesn't allow other variables, and this is why its SCIENTIFIC.

See, science is done through tests which eliminate all variables EXCEPT for the one being tested. If you apply a male kickboxer, and female marine, how are you to know WHY differences are there? maybe its the gender? Maybe its the career?

This is why is bad to compare vastly different things which more variables than necessary come into play, because then things are less conclusive.  If you truly want to say WHAT the effects of gender are, you eliminate ALL other variables and test. Granted, this isn't always possible, but you do your best, and account for variables you cannot change. But you refusing to account for, and remove the career difference just tells me you do not care about the scientific method, or getting accurate data.

Basically, to get better science, find 1 thing, and base testing around examining that one thing, and eliminate other variables as much as humanly possible to test it...

If you want to test the difference between males and females, this is 1 test
Differences between marines and kickboxers is another test.
Differences between, and comparisons of performance, for males and females in kickboxing / marines is another several tests.

I also do not understand why planets would have differences...humans on other planets are the same more or less, it says it in the lore even.

On a side note, why would anyone think MRA's are hateful?.. really confused, I've seen feminists, and other groups advocate for GENOCIDE, commit violence, do death threats, and all kinds of other stuff, but frankly I've not seen such vile actions from MRA's  before.. Someone want to educate me on something I'm missing?

[Bozobub]

I also do not understand why planets would have differences...humans on other planets are the same more or less, it says it in the lore even.

On a side note, why would anyone think MRA's are hateful?.. really confused, I've seen feminists, and other groups advocate for GENOCIDE, commit violence, do death threats, and all kinds of other stuff, but frankly I've not seen such vile actions from MRA's  before.. Someone want to educate me on something I'm missing?

a)  "Genetic drift".  According to Tynan, FTL travel doesn't exist in the Rimworld universe.  Other worlds will, then, be separated by generations of objective time to get to the nearest stars, possibly many of them, for more distant destinations.  It doesn't take very long for humanity to start exhibiting very distinct variation, indeed, even if NOT overly isolated (see also pygmies, Dinka, etc.)

b)  A LOT of people noticed the vitriol coming from "MRAs" in and around "GamerGate", as one recent example.  Most people don't like listening to a privileged group whining about how they're not privileged enough, to be completely frank.  See also "white rights", "white lives matter".  Such individuals are annoyances to be removed from the universe with extreme prejudice.

And that's coming from a white male =) .

[mumblemumble]

I understand the idea of genetic drift, HOWEVER, doesn't this fall under "evolutionary pressure"? Seems to me the lore says this isn't happening... Granted, I might be misinterpreting, but evolutionary pressures seems to also involve "genetic drifting"  that would happen with different environments. In short, evolution or variation has not happened in any scale larger than a normal population. Keep in mind, current dynamics would remain the same generally, and pressures to evolve long term would not apply.

As for the "vitrol". You are comparing people whining about things that, in your opinion, they have no right to complain about, to people who advocate for genocide, commit violence, and use death threats. Myself, and most people care more about the actions, and measurable EFFECTS from stuff.. to which, I'm not seeing why you say they are evil. And I've seen 0 evidence showing race / gender ALONE provides an immense privilege.

Even if you think white males are the end all be all of evil, and literally Satan-hitlers offspring, you gotta admit the actions aren't scaled properly

But this is off topic...I encourage you to make an off topic thread about how precisely white males are privileged, I gaurentee I will take interest. If not, I will make one myself and invite you

[Bozobub]

Read the article I linked; genetic drift is considered a completely separate source of variation in a given gene pool.

[raonull]

Like with literally everything else in reality, skill is the most important aspect of an activity. Especially when it comes to fighting.

A guy that is big and strong, yet not very good at fighting, will get their ass beaten by a 80lbs-soaking-wet girl who knows martial arts.

Stop reinforcing negative stereotypes.

This is generally false. Don't mix politics with biological facts.

Top tier female athletes still get beat by male athletes that are not the highest ranked in their league.

It is not a negative stereotype. It doesn't make those women worth less than those men. Just different. There are advantages to being weaker -- you can be more precise, you are more trusted, and people are inclined to protect you. But the main advantage is that you don't need to eat as much. Muscles burn a lot of fuel. Survival situations favor efficiency over power sometimes.

In game I think it would be fair for 'average' women to consume less food than men, even while being a little weaker in melee. However there could be a exceptions in some of the backstories, like a female vat grown soldier... might be closer to male strength. Maybe a trait that reflects genetic engineering.

Someone else brought up social skills. There are studies showing men and women develop neurological differences that effect risk behaviors and social behaviors. It makes sense because creating social bonds is crucial for small groups surviving. In fact one of the starting scenarios is tribal. So having some social buffs be common for females fits the game setting IMO.

[Bozobub]

And none of this matters in the least.  The simulation simply is fine-grained enough, without making changes guaranteed to generate controversy of the most obnoxious sort.  I don't think any of those trolls need feeding.

[raonull]

yeah I kind of agree. I don't mind the way it is. But a change like the one OP suggests isn't unrealistic. Guess that's for the modders.

[mumblemumble]

Bozo, this is 1 part of a much, MUCH larger interaction called evolution.

Yes, genetic drift occurs, but if this is THEN passed on is what matters.

assume for instance, a colonist was born with a 3rd arm in his back... This, POSSIBLY, could end up being an amazing development, except you must ask 1 very important question : Will they reproduce?

Generally speaking, attraction, ability to fit into the world, and function good are the important parts of reproduction. The game already has an attraction debuff for mutilated / grotesqe looking people, and so you must ask, where would the PRESSURE to mate with a guy with an arm in his back come from? It would have to be passed down for GENERATIONS before humans would have 3 arms, and in the mean time, the 3rd arm would be completely useless, disgusting, and in the way.

So you must ask, if there was genetic variation, what would promote such a large change? No amount of insane genetic drifting means jack if natural / sexual selection throws it out. Because genetic drift is 1 part, of a bigger mechanic. Ever notice how blind, expert tier surgeons fuck up in rimworld WAAAAAAY more than mediocre surgeons who can see?

Same conecpt...yes, genetic drift is important, but unless you have an evolutionary pressure to pair with it, not much will happen.

Also, I still don't believe it would cause such a massive controversy, or any impact on sales. Most of this stuff is people getting mad for a few weeks then moving onto the next "big evil".

[Bozobub]

You are confusing mutation with genetic drift.  Genetic drift can occur with zero mutation, in fact, and is also separate from natural selection.  It basically involves changes in frequency in genes due to the "sample error" inherent in the process.

I specifically referred to genetic drift, because it's usually the strongest source of variation in small and/or unusually non-variant populations, such as those of parthenogenic lizards or inhabitants of backwards rimworlds =) .

The skinny of it is that while genetic drift won't produce, for example, extra limbs — unless those genes are already present in the gene pool — mutation possibly can.  Genetic drift does not produce new genes, it stirs the frequency of the expression of current genes.

Edit -> Another excellent article.

[mumblemumble]

. . .Genetic mutation, and genetic drift are the same thing, pretty sure, only difference is "mutation" is a much more severe WORD for it, just like "cut" and "gash" are the same, but gash is much worse. They both cause differences in the body from the parents, and are caused by very small changes / "mutations" in the DNA.

And again, this does not dismiss the argument that LARGE SCALE CHANGES to an entire population would need a PRESSURE of sorts, which, I might remind you, is explicitly absent in the past of "standard" humans in rimworld

[tocsin1990]

I think this conversation has gotten a little bit off topic.  in response to the original suggestion...

I can agree, there are inherent differences between men and women, and not an insignificant one.  Yes, this gap can be overcome (a highly skilled female can easily overpower a low skilled male), but if all skills are considered equal, the male will roughly 90% of the time overcome the female.  even if the male is close in skill, but not quite equal, the male will still generally overcome the female in combat.

I could definitely see a translation of this in rimworld terms, as a straight +3 melee skill bonus for males, and a corresponding +3 skill in shooting for women.  It seems about realistic, that a woman with 15 skill in brawling should be able to wipe the floor with any male below a 12 skill, but any male with 13 or higher skill should have a slight advantage over the woman, in terms of combat prowess.

This, of course, could be directly nullified by certain childhood or adult backstories.  Maybe "vat grown soldier" or other military professional backstories could come with "gender based combat modifiers nullified", since professional military training before crash landing would more than make up for any gender based deficiencies.

[Headshotkill]

I also do not understand why planets would have differences...humans on other planets are the same more or less, it says it in the lore even.

On a side note, why would anyone think MRA's are hateful?.. really confused, I've seen feminists, and other groups advocate for GENOCIDE, commit violence, do death threats, and all kinds of other stuff, but frankly I've not seen such vile actions from MRA's  before.. Someone want to educate me on something I'm missing?

a)  "Genetic drift".  According to Tynan, FTL travel doesn't exist in the Rimworld universe.  Other worlds will, then, be separated by generations of objective time to get to the nearest stars, possibly many of them, for more distant destinations.  It doesn't take very long for humanity to start exhibiting very distinct variation, indeed, even if NOT overly isolated (see also pygmies, Dinka, etc.)

b)  A LOT of people noticed the vitriol coming from "MRAs" in and around "GamerGate", as one recent example.  Most people don't like listening to a privileged group whining about how they're not privileged enough, to be completely frank.  See also "white rights", "white lives matter".  Such individuals are annoyances to be removed from the universe with extreme prejudice.

And that's coming from a white male =) .

While your remark about humans living isolated on different planet would produce genetic difference and lead to new evolutionary pathways (just here on earth climate has influenced evolution, black people from mainly Africa, white people from northern/colder regions). The game's lore has stated that humans have NOT changed too much from each other due to evolutionary pressures from other planets, we've transcended beyond that, we don't change, we change the planet.

As for the MRA's/feminists discussion, both groups contain absolute trash, IMO feminism has been infected worse than MRA's.
Where as the stand points of MRA's are sometimes understandable (male suicide rate, male workplace death rate, male prison rape rate, male draft,...), feminism has progressed beyond rationallity, it started crossing the bording in the 1970's once most dissadvantages for women were removed. I'll regain faith in feminism once they end their unholy alliance with fat-acceptance and unconditional support of minority groups for the sake of diversity. The day feminism starts helping oppressed women in islamic countries instead of bitching about catwoman showing her but and Batman not, I'll change my mind.

And for both groups, stop whining about privilige, seriously this mentality within these groups has to be eradicated.