An alternative to bigger raids ?

[b0rsuk]

I think many of us would agree difficulty scaling by making raids progressively bigger is boring. Eventually raids just get too big to control, and turn every colony into a killbox bunker. They could still grow in number, but slower.

How about some alternatives ?
* a raid + nightime/rain/storm/fog (lower accuracy, movement speed). Imagine a siege during a fog, where sniper rifles no longer hit much.
* a raid + heat wave
* a raid + solar flare
* a raid + manhunter pack
* a raid + psychic drone
* a raid + flashstorm
* a raid + another raid by a different faction, at the same time.
* a raid + infestation. Yay!

I've played mostly on Randy Random, but it's extremely rare that a raid happens during one of these events, especially solar flare, which sounds terrifying if you rely on turrets but never actually happened for me. I don't remember two raids by different factions happening within the same time window.
Such "coincidences" could be explained by raiders having advance knowledge about weather (meteo station), making temporary alliances, having spies, scouts.

I think we agree such variations would be more interesting than simply scaling raids in size ?

Also, allow smaller intervals between raids. That has largely the same effect as a bigger raid, but is more dramatic because your priorities in cleanup and the way you clean up would have a bigger impact.

[mumblemumble]

Or how about an "elite" raid, with less guys, but better gear, better shots, and people who are propped up with drugs, bionics, ect...might make stuff interesting.

[JuicyPVP]

Yeah. The game might consider sending less melee. I easily wipe out people with personal shields on with a line of my 5 or 6 best shooters and 2 or 3 turrets to aide.

[Kryc8]

100% agree

[b0rsuk]

Or how about an "elite" raid, with less guys, but better gear, better shots, and people who are propped up with drugs, bionics, ect...might make stuff interesting.

Translation: send better loot instead.

Gear is loot, especially weapons and armor. Better shots = better people to convert. Bionics can be harvested from captured people too.

[Thyme]

half of those suggestions actually make raids easier:
bad weather: colony has roofed defense positions, raiders not
manhunter: guess who will be attacked first!
two factions attacking: if they're allied, it's a bigger raid. if not, see manhunter
flashstorm: either helps you by zapping raiders or has no effect

heat waves build up the heat gradually. if it has an effect, then it's the raiders who suffer through bad gear. I once had a cold snap while I had two caravans (A15) in town, they developed hypothermia and most of them were either downed or died.

[b0rsuk]

You're not looking at the bigger picture. When there's a heat wave or another incident, it often requires some colonist work, for example building passive coolers, processing the excess meat into kibble, fast cooking of lavish meals. A heatwave during a raid doesn't make the raid directly more threatening, but - especially when you factor in cleaning/repairing work a raid causes - would contribute to things spiralling out of control.

And I don't necessarily mean raid + manhunter pack being executed exactly simultaneously, but for example within a 3 hour interval, so raid/manhunters (whoever comes first) has a chance to inflict some damage first. Besides try to think what happens when boomrats/boomalopes start exploding and you have no way to start extinguishing fires because bullets are flying everywhere. Your fields are gone, at least.

Same with raids. I can't remember two raids within 1 day of each other. If they could happen within 3-5 hours, there would be complications. And it would depend on the kind of raid. I assume people raiding your colony target your colony as first priority, and shoot another faction if it appears within range. But what if one of the raids is a siege, and the other a casual raid ? Will you really be able to snipe mortar operators at the same time as another faction assaults you ?

As long as raids are precluded from occuring during other major events (raids included) - and it feels like they are - we'l never know. Storytellers seem to execute events in isolation.

[Fafn1r]

I really liked the action war even from HardcoreSK when I played it a while back. There were multiple raids and ally aids within few hours and randomness maked it very varied. One time I had two hostile factions slaughter themselves under fire from my battlements, another there were two sieges at the same time and I had to split my colonists to deal with them both, another I had to fend off three big waves of tribals, one after another.

Most of all I would like to see raid and raider AI revamp for some alpha. Mixing events with raids sounds like not putting enough heart into a feature.

[Goldenpotatoes]

Raiders just need to be smarter in general, variation will only do so much if the raiders themselves are still dumb enough to run into a killbox.

There really should be some sort of heat map mechanic for the AI that keeps track of pawn deaths and have the AI try and path around spots with a high influx of death, similar to how they already mark and avoid traps they've previously triggered. You'd be forced to either keep constructing new killboxes after each initial use or find more elaborate ways to defend yourself that isn't a giant maze/box of doom.

[Limdood]

Raiders just need to be smarter in general, variation will only do so much if the raiders themselves are still dumb enough to run into a killbox.

There really should be some sort of heat map mechanic for the AI that keeps track of pawn deaths and have the AI try and path around spots with a high influx of death, similar to how they already mark and avoid traps they've previously triggered. You'd be forced to either keep constructing new killboxes after each initial use or find more elaborate ways to defend yourself that isn't a giant maze/box of doom.

AI can't keep up with player innovation.  Certainly there is a sweet spot, and I'm not implying that AI should never be improved because its futile, but trying to make raids smarter will never be able to keep up with players cheesing it somehow.

Alternatively, you break aspects of the game.  If raiders try to skip places with decent amounts of deaths, then traps become less useful than they already are.  If raiders overlook an obvious easy entry into the base and simply chisel thru 5 blocks of wall, all that is happening is that walls are being declared useless because they don't encourage raiders to go around anymore.

Sappers, sieges, and infestations are all examples of an attempted AI fix to raids.  Each of them is hugely exploitable in the right circumstances and will often make those "threats" into basically a windfall of free loot/gear/money.  Setting up to attack a siege during their construction, or waiting til they sleep and positioning melee units.  Engaging sappers during their pathing to the walls, or taking advantage of the fact that they often scatter and separate to attack different sections of wall.  Taking advantage of temperature mechanics to exploit infestations...

In a game this complicated, "just make raids smarter," even if you have an idea for how, is a monumental undertaking and has a serious possibility to be even more easily handled due to its interaction with some other system in the game.

[Goldenpotatoes]

AI can't keep up with player innovation.  Certainly there is a sweet spot, and I'm not implying that AI should never be improved because its futile, but trying to make raids smarter will never be able to keep up with players cheesing it somehow.

Well yeah, that goes for just about any game with AI. The whole reason raid scaling works as is at the moment is because AI is too dumb and the only real solution until otherwise is to throw more raiders into the colony's meat-grinder until it breaks.

Alternatively, you break aspects of the game.  If raiders try to skip places with decent amounts of deaths, then traps become less useful than they already are.  If raiders overlook an obvious easy entry into the base and simply chisel thru 5 blocks of wall, all that is happening is that walls are being declared useless because they don't encourage raiders to go around anymore.

Traps become less useful if you don't bother to reconfigure them after a raid so the next wave doesn't know where/how its set up. If raiders are deciding that your walls are probably an easier breaching point than your front-door killbox, then you can't really fault them for figuring out one way leads to way less deaths. You'd probably do the same thing if you were in the raider's shoes.

Sappers, sieges, and infestations are all examples of an attempted AI fix to raids.  Each of them is hugely exploitable in the right circumstances and will often make those "threats" into basically a windfall of free loot/gear/money.  Setting up to attack a siege during their construction, or waiting til they sleep and positioning melee units.  Engaging sappers during their pathing to the walls, or taking advantage of the fact that they often scatter and separate to attack different sections of wall.  Taking advantage of temperature mechanics to exploit infestations...

Sappers and sieges being exploitable to the extent they are is due to dumb AI being unresponsive to player actions. Sieges should have night-shift pawns who guard the others while they sleep and be reactive to gun-fire from the colony. Sappers need to prioritize sticking together and working on a singular target for breaching. Infestations are just giant bugs so I can't really argue for their intelligence past 'swarm the humans if they get too close'.

In a game this complicated, "just make raids smarter," even if you have an idea for how, is a monumental undertaking and has a serious possibility to be even more easily handled due to its interaction with some other system in the game.

"just make raids smarter", as in "make pirates not blindly run into the giant meat-grinder for the 200th time".

[Grishnerf]

i think rimworlds AI is fine to play with.
of course you can abuse it in many ways, the same you can abuse the AI in starcraft.
and i would consider starcrafts AI the best on the market for a buildable RTS.


the only Thing rimworld needs is more diversity HOW those raids/ai-decisions come together.
many suggested the same:

make them split up Forces.
make them invade from several directions.
let them tunnel Underground into your base like an infesation.
let them get reinforcements while they fight.
let them reconsider attack paths. (attack, then with no reason just wait and retreat, attack other Position)
Combine this with 3-4 different grps that have split up and all act independently around your base.
let them "camp" certain spots for days. Problem is they always have to move to a target (Standing lamp lul)
if some of them just camp an area with no reason, it creates diversity if you have 3 other grps acting like i described above.

the whole combat gets more dynamic and chaotic.

[Nomsayinbrah]

OR

how about a raid - but they attack in multiple directions?

If you ahve a killbox, you'll have to take care of those that walk in the killbox - but at the same time, sappers come from the other side and are digging through to your base, and same on the north of your base

etc etc

[Nomsayinbrah]

i think rimworlds AI is fine to play with.
of course you can abuse it in many ways, the same you can abuse the AI in starcraft.
and i would consider starcrafts AI the best on the market for a buildable RTS.


the only Thing rimworld needs is more diversity HOW those raids/ai-decisions come together.
many suggested the same:

make them split up Forces.
make them invade from several directions.
let them tunnel Underground into your base like an infesation.
let them get reinforcements while they fight.
let them reconsider attack paths. (attack, then with no reason just wait and retreat, attack other Position)
Combine this with 3-4 different grps that have split up and all act independently around your base.
let them "camp" certain spots for days. Problem is they always have to move to a target (Standing lamp lul)
if some of them just camp an area with no reason, it creates diversity if you have 3 other grps acting like i described above.

the whole combat gets more dynamic and chaotic.

I'm sorry, I overlooked ur comment - but this ^^^!!

Very good idea tbh. And it's not THAT hard to implement (i think?)

[Thyme]

Yeah, Grishnerf got it right.
AI needs to be smart. Smart AIs are hard tho =)