[A16][WIP] Backstories

[AngleWyrm]

Oh hi, it's you again -- shouldn't you be out modding something? You can tell when a mod has reached it's final stages of usefulness to the public when the developer effort is more towards the destruction of their mod's use through nerfs, gameplay vandalism and general distain. I wonder if the same can be said for developers. My latest iteration of human-readable, attached.

[attachment deleted by admin due to age]

[dburgdorf]

Oh hi, it's you again -- shouldn't you be out modding something?

Since, as I'd think would be self-evident, I mod as a hobby, "should" or "shouldn't" really aren't relevant concepts. As it happens, yes, I'm working on updates to several of my mods, but that's hardly something I'm going to do to the exclusion of any other possible use of my time.

And besides, as this little project of yours exists solely in response to and as a supposed supplement for one of my own mods, I feel an obligation to keep tabs on it. And believe it or not, I'd actually be thrilled if you came up with something worthwhile.

You can tell when a mod has reached it's final stages of usefulness to the public....

Well, as I'm still actively working to make my mods more useful, consistent with the feedback I'm getting from those actually using them, I'm not sure what relevance this comment might have.

I do recall seeing you say essentially the same thing in another thread, though, as part of a diatribe against the entire concept of game balance. The very clear impression I got from that message was that you felt that unless a mod was being developed in a way that allowed you to do more stuff without restrictions or penalties, its developer was "destroying" it. So forgive me if I take your opinion of what constitutes "the final stages" of a mod's usefulness with a pretty large grain of salt.

My latest iteration of human-readable, attached.

Again, all XML is, by definition, human-readable.  So what you actually mean here is:

My latest iteration of code that has XML tags that I like, even though they're incorrect and won't work unless you change them back to what they're supposed to be, attached.

Anyway....

So, I take it you're going to completely ignore the actual content of my previous post as regards the pointlessness of a transformation that accomplishes nothing and has to be undone before the resulting file can actually be used, or the problems of hard-coding data validation that doesn't allow for the possibility that other mods might add usable elements?

[Granitecosmos]

Ok, so let's recap the short history behind this.

A makes X. B thinks X isn't easily understandable, therefore proposes the creation of Y. A tells B that X is actually easily understandable and Y would achieve little-to-no change. B decides to make Y anyway and, after a few days finishes the basis of Y which is exactly what A predicted would be.

Right now we can see A telling B that he was right (which is indeed the case) while also raising awareness that Y has no mod support whatsoever, further limiting it's usefullness. In response B implies that A probably tries to demote or sabotage Y because he can't make X better or thinks Y is endangering the existence of X.

It appears that B forgot that the sole reason for Y's existence is to serve X, therefore Y's maximum quality is always equal or less than X's maximum quality. B also seems to ignore that X is in no way a finished product; in fact, X is more like a gateway for others to add their content. Therefore the proposition that X can't evolve further is moot; it's up to the user to improve it. Let's not forget that A was right from the beginning: X is easily understandable; Y has no possibility for proper mod support; Y's very existence was unnecessary.

Throughout the conversation between A and B, A tries more and more desperately to make B understand how Y is still unnecessary and destined to be subpar compared to just using X. B continues to ignore this and now is actually mocking A, forgetting that since Y is dependant on X, A has an easy way to screw B and Y over if B becomes pesky enough.

All the while C is watching with a grin and eating popcorn.

[dburgdorf]

Ok, so let's recap the short history behind this....

Even simpler recap: "A" let himself get dragged back into a pointless conversation with "B" that he'd already decided to abandon, until "C" reminded him of just how fruitless the entire silly pissing match actually was.

You'd think after three decades posting to various online forums, I -- er, "A" -- would have learned better. 

[AngleWyrm]

Please find a way to get back into the game I seem to recall some interest in working with data tags to support the concept of backstory rarity. How's that coming along? There was also an assertion of presenting details on the spectrum mechanic of traits. Where are you on that? Further analysis of the backstory set I've combined the Adult and Child story set to get a better overall picture of how the skill adjustments are distributed. In the set of about 250 backstories each skill sums up to 54 +/- 25. There are three outliers to the set: Melee, Cooking and Social.

Food service industry backstory collection To address the shortage of cooks that are seen coming and going in the game, I've made a set of five cook backstories. Two are childhood and three are adulthood, and they can appear in any group of arrivals. BTW, the file they appear in is irrelevant as far as the game is concerned; it reads the tag not the filename. Click the attached *.htm to read about them.

@AngelWyrm ..
This Tool would surely be awesome and quite useful .. but maybe quite the PITA to update if Versions Change to much.

Fortunately the tools I have available make working with changes a breeze.

Some of the data is well-suited to a relational database model: The tags that form enumerated data such as faction types, body types, work types and so on could be better handled as separate look-up tables so that they may change whenever other developers find reason to do so.

Another example is in pulling together the list of mod-able traits, where looking up or entering a valid trait can be different from one user to another.

Lots to do

[attachment deleted by admin due to age]

[dburgdorf]

I seem to recall some interest in working with data tags to support the concept of backstory rarity. How's that coming along? There was also an assertion of presenting details on the spectrum mechanic of traits. Where are you on that?

I expect to have an updated version of "Editable Backstories" released before the weekend. The main thing I still have left to finish is the database. I'm roughly doubling the number of backstories in the "out of the box" default data set, and that involves a lot of cleanup work on the entries.

The expanded documentation is mostly complete at this point, including detailed information regarding (vanilla) traits, work types, etc.

The implementation of backstory rarity is already completed. What I've done is add a new (optional) tag to the "spawnCategory" list. Viable options are "Common," "Uncommon," "Rare" and "Legendary." (If undefined, it of course defaults to "Common.")

So, for example, you might define a backstory's spawn categories as:

<SpawnCategory>
    <li>Civil</li>
    <li>Trader</li>
    <li>Traveler</li>
    <li>Uncommon</li>
</SpawnCategory>

In terms of frequency of appearance, assuming an equal number of backstories in each of the four categories in the database, you could expect to see among the backstories of pawns in your game roughly 67.5% common, 22.5% uncommon, 7.5% rare and 2.5% legendary.  Of course, most players won't have equal numbers of backstories in each of the categories. Assuming a more natural set, with more common than uncommon, more uncommon than rare, and more rare than legendary, the appearance percentages will skew more toward the common, with the result that for most players, the distribution of backstory rarities will end up closely matching standard deviations on a normal bell curve. (I bring that up because you did, after all, specifically request it.)

I also have a potential incompatibility issue with "Humanoid Alien Framework" that I need to take a look at, but if that doesn't turn out to be something I can identify and fix quickly, I won't let it hold up the next release.

[AngleWyrm]

So, for example, you might define a backstory's spawn categories as: <SpawnCategory>     <li>Civil</li>     <li>Trader</li>     <li>Traveler</li>     <li>Uncommon</li> </SpawnCategory> Yeah that works. Looking forward to a better understanding of the spectrum mechanic.

[AngleWyrm]

Animal Handlers After spending some time enjoying leonlim007's Minions mod, I developed a need for animal handlers and trainers. So many little yellow mouths to feed. So here then is a collection of five animal handler backstories; two childhood and three adult. Click the attached *.html to read about them.

[attachment deleted by admin due to age]

[Granitecosmos]

Animal Handlers After spending some time enjoying leonlim007's Minions mod, I developed a need for animal handlers and trainers. So many little yellow mouths to feed. So here then is a collection of five animal handler backstories; two childhood and three adult. Click the attached *.html to read about them.

This is what you shouldn't post in a thread in the Unfinished Mods section. Most people don't come here for content, that's what the Released Mods section is for. If you want to share the xml go to the appropriate thread and post it there. If you leave it here you won't find many people downloading it, especially considering your first post still doesn't properly describe your goal.

Finally, you added the info to the first post. Should've started with that, to be honest.

[WalkingProblem]

Ok, so let's recap the short history behind this.

A makes X. B thinks X isn't easily understandable, therefore proposes the creation of Y. A tells B that X is actually easily understandable and Y would achieve little-to-no change. B decides to make Y anyway and, after a few days finishes the basis of Y which is exactly what A predicted would be.

Right now we can see A telling B that he was right (which is indeed the case) while also raising awareness that Y has no mod support whatsoever, further limiting it's usefullness. In response B implies that A probably tries to demote or sabotage Y because he can't make X better or thinks Y is endangering the existence of X.

It appears that B forgot that the sole reason for Y's existence is to serve X, therefore Y's maximum quality is always equal or less than X's maximum quality. B also seems to ignore that X is in no way a finished product; in fact, X is more like a gateway for others to add their content. Therefore the proposition that X can't evolve further is moot; it's up to the user to improve it. Let's not forget that A was right from the beginning: X is easily understandable; Y has no possibility for proper mod support; Y's very existence was unnecessary.

Throughout the conversation between A and B, A tries more and more desperately to make B understand how Y is still unnecessary and destined to be subpar compared to just using X. B continues to ignore this and now is actually mocking A, forgetting that since Y is dependant on X, A has an easy way to screw B and Y over if B becomes pesky enough.

All the while C is watching with a grin and eating popcorn.

What an awesome summary, although I got lost about who is A and who is B. LOL!

-------

Animal Handlers After spending some time enjoying leonlim007's Minions mod, I developed a need for animal handlers and trainers. So many little yellow mouths to feed. So here then is a collection of five animal handler backstories; two childhood and three adult. Click the attached *.html to read about them.

Woot woot! Thanks for enjoying.

I'm fascinated by the world you are doing in this seemingly obscured thread. The data analysis is absolutely fascinating although I do not fully understand everything you talked about. 

But Granitecosmos is right, you should actually compile all the backstories and release it as a full mod (or perhaps you are not ready to do that yet) =D

[AngleWyrm]

Thanks bunches, and yes it's still very much a Work In Progress. Eventually I'd like to get it to the place where backstory collections can be just dropped into a folder, but that's a ways off.

[dburgdorf]

Eventually I'd like to get it to the place where backstory collections can be just dropped into a folder, but that's a ways off.

I'm a bit confused by this comment, since "just dropping the backstory files into a folder" is exactly what's possible right now with "Editable Backstories," the mod that started this whole discussion.

That said, if you'd like me to include your backstory XML files with the next release -- credited to you, of course -- I'd be happy to do so.

[AngleWyrm]

The Creation of Law and Order Within the backstory definition are three variables for body types: male, female and global. Each of these variables are sets that can be a list of values drawn from a specific pool of choices. And they overlap. There is a Thin for males, females and global, and there is a Male for males and global. If these values are stored more than once then the opportunity for errors creeps in. Maybe I forgot to capitalize one version but not another. It also becomes a maintenance headache if ever a value changes and the developer has to chase down all the copies sprinkled about. So the goal is to achieve a state where there is only a single value stored for every possibility. That way there's no opportunity for conflicting copies and no need to hunt for duplicates to change.

This is what the schema looks like that creates the underlying framework to enforce that data integrity. Each possible value exists only once, and is referenced where needed by structures which are then used as the data type for the variables that appear in a backstory entry.

[dburgdorf]

... Should I take the oddly irrelevant side-rant as a "no," then, on the question of whether you'd like me to actually distribute your backstory files along with the mod that can use them?

[Granitecosmos]

And they overlap. There is a Thin for males, females and global, and there is a Male for males and global. If these values are stored more than once then the opportunity for errors creeps in. Maybe I forgot to capitalize one version but not another. It also becomes a maintenance headache if ever a value changes and the developer has to chase down all the copies sprinkled about.

That sucks. But hey, you were the one insisting on doing this. I had no problem with writing xml for the original mod.

Actually... What is it that you try to make here, again? At first I tought you were making an editor that's supposed to be more user-friendly but all I've seen is a converter that prints text and information that can already be easily accessed, read and understood. Oh well, this is Not My Problem™.

... Should I take the oddly irrelevant side-rant as a "no," then, on the question of whether you'd like me to actually distribute your backstory files along with the mod that can use them?

I don't think OP is interested. People with interests usually show some reaction to offers, after all.