Melee Weapons

[TheMeInTeam]

...
@erdrik blunt damage actually can de-limb.  You don't see it often from fists, but good clubs and maces can rip off fingers and actually will cause bleeding when they do so...

*shrug* Blunt is still significantly better odds of saving the target's limbs than cutting damage in my experience. With blunt damage I see "destroyed" or "shattered" far more often than "torn off", and I don't recall ever seeing a destroyed or shattered body part cause bleeding.

...one of their few downsides as a choice relative to maces, which load their respective DPS over faster, weaker hits.

According the data files, Clubs and Maces have the same base damage. Its entirely quality and material that makes the difference. A Jade Club is going to do the same damage per hit as a Jade Mace(assuming equal quality). So no, its not "faster, weaker hits". Its just "faster hits" that do the same damage.

Jade mace is impossible in an unmodded game though.  Jade club is special in that as a material it applies a massive boost to blunt damage.  People compare Jade clubs to plasteel maces since the DPS is similar (within .1 of each other).  The club is faster to fashion, doesn't need anything but a crafting spot, and is very powerful against armor, but it is definitely a higher damage, slower swing option to use a jade club (base 18 damage before quality modifiers) compared to a metal mace (plasteel hits 12/swing).

Importantly, a high quality jade club will start doing >20 damage even against most armor when it hits non-torso, and that will cause more bleeders than lots of 12 damage hits.

I still prefer the clubs for their ease of access and utility but it's worth keeping in mind.

[erdrik]

Jade mace is impossible in an unmodded game though...

I don't use clubs and I don't use Jade as a material.
So the thought hadn't occurred to me that maces can't be jade.

But that just means a Jade club is meant to be a higher tier weapon, and the blunt damage it deals would still be better than the cutters of that same tier in terms of incapacitating without limb removal. Though not as good as a lesser tier mace, I'd think.

[XeoNovaDan]

But that just means a Jade club is meant to be a higher tier weapon... Though not as good as a lesser tier mace, I'd think.

A jade club slightly edges out a plasteel mace in terms of DPS. Updated the wiki page recently.

[erdrik]

But that just means a Jade club is meant to be a higher tier weapon... Though not as good as a lesser tier mace, I'd think.

A jade club slightly edges out a plasteel mace in terms of DPS. Updated the wiki page recently.

I don't get your point. You appear to have completely missed the context of the conversation...

[homemdosgalos]

Wooden club is my most used weapon. Wonderful prison control without killing usefull "soon to be" pawns.

[TrashMan]

Limbs and body parts should be way more resilient. They are way too easily shot or cut off.
That makes combat way more unrewarding and melee way too risky.


Also, maces are the evolution of clubs. They are by superior. Both doing the same damage is retarded. As well as making anything from any material. The whole concept is bonkers.

[TheMeInTeam]

But that just means a Jade club is meant to be a higher tier weapon... Though not as good as a lesser tier mace, I'd think.

A jade club slightly edges out a plasteel mace in terms of DPS. Updated the wiki page recently.

He was referring to the ability to blunt things down without causing bleeding injuries or limb loss.  Jade club hits so hard it actually can tear some stuff off, in contrast to the plasteel mace which does less damage/hit making that outcome less likely.

Realistically though, once you have a good crafter from making clothes simply queuing up 10+ wood or steel clubs and grabbing a couple excellent+ quality clubs will let a couple pawns in melee drop a single target very fast.  Aside from trying to capture someone, melee falls off too much vs too many threat types to be very useful past early game.  It's fun and it can net you a lot of value against early raids, but after that it's time to transition to using "real" weapons too...at least for now.

[sadpickle]

I like to use Gladii because they are the most practical of all the weapons. Short stabbing swords are much easier to learn to handle and use effectively than a longsword or spear.

If I were actually outfitting a group of stragglers to fight for their lives, I would definitely give them improvised (forged if possible) gladii. It served the Roman legions well enough.

[Bozobub]

Also, maces are the evolution of clubs. They are by superior. Both doing the same damage is retarded. As well as making anything from any material. The whole concept is bonkers.

That's a silly thing to say.  If I brain you with any given blunt object, really the only things that matter are its mass and how fast/hard it was swung.  ALL of the materials used are going to be harder than your head and will do similar damage.

Maces ARE clubs, just specialized, with the weight mostly at the striking end.  Generally speaking, maces are "fighting clubs"; in fact, as used, ALL RimWorld "clubs" are actually "maces", since they are manufactured expressly for combat =) .

The problem with RimWorld, is that maces *almost never* were made of just one material (although they can be).  Generally, wooden handles would be used with w/e head material, if metal wasn't.  You can't easily make an effective all-stone club/mace, because the shaft of the handle would break extremely easily.  Mace heads, however, often were stone, until the advent of copper.  It would be almost impossible to fashion an effective one-piece stone club/mace; even a diamond handle would shatter relatively easily from lateral stresses that wood or metal would ignore.  You'd have to make a one-piece stone club insanely massive to compensate.

Useful links:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Club_(weapon)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mace
http://wikidiff.com/club/mace
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/29u3gd/help_understanding_weapons_what_is_the_difference/ <- Useful but no, maces don't have to have any metal at all.
http://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/317466 <- Ancient Peruvian stone mace head.  Groovy!

Tl;dr?  There's no reason a club, as described in RimWorld, can't do as much or more damage than a mace.

[TrashMan]

That's a silly thing to say.  If I brain you with any given blunt object, really the only things that matter are its mass and how fast/hard it was swung.  ALL of the materials used are going to be harder than your head and will do similar damage.

Words have meaning. Clubs are rough wooden weapon, a bit wider at the top.

Maces are properly crafted, made from steel or iron. They have a thin metal shaft and a bit striking "ball" - maximum impact for less weight.
A steel club would be waaaay inefficient because of weight distribution and balance. Throwing too much material for no gain.

[erdrik]

...Words have meaning...

Less so in a game. Clubs in Rimworld are abstracted to "blunt melee weapon of X material, a bit wider at the top".
In real life a "metal club" can be closely related to a metal baseball bat.
It may be called a bat, but in general shape and use it can act as a club.
And as Bozobub posted there is historical precedent for non metal maces.

The issue here isn't that you can make a club or mace out of anything, its that it only requires one type of any material.
It should be:
"X amount of any material, and X amount of steel, and X amount of wood"
or "X amount of any material, and X amount of steel"
or "X amount of any material, and X amount of wood"


...
Or "X amount of any material, and X amount of steel or wood".
Maybe Tynan can expand the material building mechanics at some point, but for right now the game simply doesn't support two categories of optional materials.

[Bozobub]

That's a silly thing to say.  If I brain you with any given blunt object, really the only things that matter are its mass and how fast/hard it was swung.  ALL of the materials used are going to be harder than your head and will do similar damage.

Words have meaning. Clubs are rough wooden weapon, a bit wider at the top.

Maces are properly crafted, made from steel or iron. They have a thin metal shaft and a bit striking "ball" - maximum impact for less weight.
A steel club would be waaaay inefficient because of weight distribution and balance. Throwing too much material for no gain.

Yes, words have meaning.  And I gave you links to the meaning of the words you happen to be using incorrectly.  And a steel club is AKA a "mace", my friend, exactly as those links will show you, and all-steel (or bronze, or w/e) maces were quite common throughout history.  Hop to it or stop quibbling, because you're not going anywhere with this.  A mace is a specialized club, no more, no less.

Note:  A hollow steel handle can be lighter than the equivalent wooden handle, while remaining much stronger (cylinders are very strong); it will be, however, MUCH more expensive and difficult to manufacture, or replace in the field.  This made wooden-handled versions quite common, as well, until maces and clubs fell out of general use in warfare (with exceptions, however, even up to modern day).  SO it's not terribly inaccurate to rely on only one material for metal maces but a stone mace, however, will definitely require a tougher handle/shaft, usually wood.   As for clubs, sure, you could make an all-stone club out of the right material easily enough, as long as you don't try to make a thin handle.

Before you start sneering at clubs as "primitive", you might wanna slap some eyeballs on these:
https://www.warpaths2peacepipes.com/native-indian-weapons-tools/war-clubs.htm
https://www.warpaths2peacepipes.com/native-indian-weapons-tools/ball-clubs.htm
https://www.warpaths2peacepipes.com/native-indian-weapons-tools/battle-hammer.htm
https://www.warpaths2peacepipes.com/native-indian-weapons-tools/pick-axe.htm
https://www.warpaths2peacepipes.com/native-indian-weapons-tools/gunstock-club.htm
https://www.warpaths2peacepipes.com/native-indian-weapons-tools/hatchet-axe.htm <- All classified as clubs.  Yes, really.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_weaponry

Turns out a stone-and-wood club ain't too shabby!  I'd like to own any one of those; they're absolutely gorgeous.

[Blastoderm]

None. Melee is godawful even with A17 rework. I use melee only if I get brawler pawns or recruits. Melee runs now is a kind of challenge for the sake of challenge, like no iron runs in dwarf fortress.

[Perq]

Longswords. But to be honest, melee weapons are annoying to use due to how AI acts with them.
Having to manually order them to attack because they refuse to move on their own is simply annoying and completely unpractical when handling larger forces.

[Bozobub]

Longswords. But to be honest, melee weapons are annoying to use due to how AI acts with them.
Having to manually order them to attack because they refuse to move on their own is simply annoying and completely unpractical when handling larger forces.

Agreed.  In fact, so far this is my biggest problem w/ melee in general.