B18 Feedback: Social Drug Balance.

[Granitecosmos]

Social drugs. Their purpose: to provide a source of mood buff. They are not safe for long-term use but can be taken for a few days to help overcome an unexpected mood debuff without any long-term negative effects. This is their purpose. It's always nice to have some in case of an emergency. Relatives died in a raid? Smoke a joint. Bonded animal died? Drink a beer. They are great tools for a quick mood boost every few days, as long as it's on the short-term.

But then B18 happened and pekoe has disturbed the already fragile balance.

First of all, let's see what they are and what they do.


Smokeleaf joint:

• Requires no technology.
• Requires no infrastructure. Can be made at a crafting spot that costs nothing to place.
• Needs 4 smokeleaves. Has a market value of 11. Very fast crafting time.
• Smokeleaf plant needs growing skill of 5, grows in 7.5 days (assuming 24h growth; real value is roughly 50% of this at the center of a 30% generated planet without sunlamp) and yields 11 smokeleaves. It has a fertility sensitivity of 100% (bad for gravel, good for fertile soil and hydroponics). Assuming average sunlight and no sunlamp, one plant yields roughly ~0.18 joints every day or ~2.02 silver every day.
• One joint per day can be safely used up to 8 days without risking addiction. Addiction chance is 2%. None of the health ailments have any chance to occur either.

One joint's effect lasts 12 hours. Upon finishing smoking, the pawn's joy bar increases by 80% and their rest bar decreases by 10%. This is about ~2.22 hours' worth of work time lost before the "Tired" debuff appears if used before the bar falls under ~38%.
Smoking one joint will grant:

• +15 mood.
• -30% consciousness.
• -10% movement.
• -20% pain offset.
• +30% hunger need drop rate.

Smokeleaf joints provide a nice mood buff, although they destroy productivity, speed and combat capabilities. The flat 20% pain reduction is great and if it didn't decrease consciousness I'd definitely use it as a combat drug. But that's not what the joint is for.

It can be used to buff mood in extreme cases when you really don't want a pawn to suffer a mental breakdown and don't mind them being mostly useless for it. It's great for reducing mood loss from pain caused by mechanites and other pain-inducing diseases as well. The first social drug the player can make, it has pros and cons. It also sells well.


Pekoe:

• Requires a technology worth 400 points (unless the player starts with tribal tech, then it's free).
• Requires no infrastructure. Can be made at a crafting spot that costs nothing to place.
• Needs 4 psychoid leaves. Has a market value of 14. Very fast crafting time (slightly faster than smokeleaf joint).
• Psychoid plant needs growing skill of 6, grows in 9 days (assuming 24h growth; real value is roughly 50% of this at the center of a 30% generated planet without sunlamp) and yields 10 psychoid leaves. It has a fertility sensitivity of 100% (bad for gravel, good for fertile soil and hydroponics). Assuming average sunlight and no sunlamp, one plant yields roughly ~0.14 pekoe every day or ~1.94 silver every day.
• One pekoe per day can be safely used up to 16 days without risking addiction. Addiction chance is 2%. None of the health ailments have any chance to occur either.

One pekoe's effect lasts 6 hours. Upon finishing drinking, the pawn's joy bar increases by 40% and their rest bar increases by 10%. This is about 2.22 hours' worth of work time gained before the "Tired" debuff appears if used before the bar falls under ~28%.
Drinking one pekoe will grant:

• +12 mood.
• -10% pain modifier.
• -10% rest need drop rate. This can mean up to 0.6 hours' worth of additional work time before the "Tired" debuff appears.

Pekoe would be the next step for mood. It has no downsides after taking whatsoever and the slightly reduced pain means it is useable as a very weak combat drug. It can be used for a bit over an entire season if limited for once per day. The mood buff is almost as good as smokeleaf's. A definitive upgrade. In fact, it's too good.

No downsides means it can be used whenever the player wants. It grants almost the same amount of mood buff as joints but lasts only half as long. A bit less profitable but requires less growing/harvesting work to compensate. It's strictly better than beer, despite costing less research and requiring less infrastruture which hurts game's balance. It sells for the same amount as flake despite costing a lot less research and less infrastructure which renders flake's only niche moot.


Beer:

• Requires a technology worth 700 points.
• Requires a brewing station and at least one fermenting barrel to be built.
• Needs 5 hops for every bottle. Has a market value of 12. Extremely slow crafting time (fermenting takes 10 days, although needs no direct work).
• Hop plant needs growing skill of 7, grows in 5 days (assuming 24h growth; real value is roughly 50% of this at the center of a 30% generated planet without sunlamp) and yields 10 hops. It has a fertility sensitivity of 70% (good for gravel, bad for fertile soil and hydroponics). Assuming average sunlight and no sunlamp, one plant yields exactly 0.2 beer bottles every day or 2.4 silver every day.
• One beer per day can be safely used up to 13 days without risking addiction. Two beers per day can be safely used up to 4 days without risking addiction. Three or more beers per day should be avoided not because of chance of addiction but because consuming three beers in quick succession pushes the pawn to the "Drunk" stage. Addiction chance is 1%. None of the health ailments have any chance to occur either, unless a pawn enters the "Blackout" stage.

One beer's effect lasts 3.6 hours. Upon finishing drinking, the pawn's joy bar increases by 17% and their hunger bar increases by 8%.
Beer's effects appear in stages. Each bottle adds 15%. Maximum is 100%.
Upon consuming one bottle, the pawn first experiences the "Warm" stage. This stage lasts for 1.2 hours after one beer and provides the following:

• +8 mood.
• -2% manipulation.
• -10% pain modifier.
• +50% chance to start a social fight.

After this stage, the next stage called "Buzzed" starts. This stage lasts for 2.4 hours and provides the following:

• Nothing. This stage is hidden to the player.

Two beers' effect lasts for ~7.2 hours. Upon consuming two bottles in quick succession, the pawn first experiences the "Tipsy" stage. This stage lasts for 1.2 hours after two beers and provides the following:

• +12 mood.
• -10% consciousness.
• -5% movement.
• -20% pain modifier.
• +150% chance to start a social fight.

After this stage the pawn receives the "Warm" buff for 3.6 hours, then after that the "Buzzed" buff for 2.4 hours.

Three beers' effect lasts for 10.8 hours. Upon consuming three bottles in quick succession, the pawn first experiences the "Drunk" stage for roughly ~2.4 hours. Moments after entering this stage, the pawn receives a debuff called "Hangover" for 24 hours. The debuff's first stage the pawn experiences is called "Pounding". This debuff is invisible as long as the alcohol's effect lasts but the effects are there regardless of that. Both effects together provide the following:

• +8 mood.
• -53% consciousness.
• -10% movement.
• -40% pain modifier.
• +400% chance to start a social fight.
• ~3.83 vomiting per day on average.

After that the pawn experiences the "Tipsy" stage for 3.6 hours, the "Warm" stage for 3.6 hours and the "Buzzed" stage for 2.4 hours ("Buzzed" becomes visible only if the pawn is affected by the "Hangover" debuff). The effects are the same except the following has to be added to each of the stages:

• -10 mood.
• -18% consciousness.
• 2.5 vomiting per day on average.

After the alcohol's effect disappears the debuff's current stage will last for an additional 2.4 hours and the "Hangover" debuff becomes visible on the health screen. After that, the "Strong" phase starts and lasts for 6 hours, granting the following:

• -5 mood.
• -8% consciousness.

After that, the "Slight" stage appears and lasts for 3.6 hours, granting the following:

• -2 mood.
• -3% consciousness.

Drinking one beer grants +8 mood for 1.2 in-game hours. This is trash and isn't worth it. Two beers are hardly better, since it consumes two bottles. Considering equal sized growing zones, players can grow psychoid leaf instead and craft pekoe; one pekoe lasts longer than two beers and grants a consistent +12 mood buff. It's just better in every way. So it's not worth it to drink two beers either. And if drinking three, the player either has to micromanage to avoid the "Drunk" state or actually reaches that state, at which point it's simply not worth it over even two beers. Beer is completely invalidated by pekoe.

But this is hardly a new thing. Beer has been this bad for long enough. Before B18 the only other contender was smokeleaf which destroys productivity, while beer doesn't do that to such extent, thus granting beer the niche of being bad but at least it gives some mood buff without severely decreasing productivity. Beer needs a buff while pekoe needs a nerf because right now there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to ever touch beer and beer production because players can just make pekoe instead.


Ambrosia:

• Can't be cultivated. Occurrence relies on RNG and trader stocks.
• Has a market value of 15.
• Ambrosia bush grows in 6 days (assuming 24h growth; real value is roughly 50% of this at the center of a 30% generated planet without sunlamp) and yields 4 fruits. It has a fertility sensitivity of 15% (good for gravel, bad for fertile soil and hydroponics). Assuming average sunlight and no sunlamp, one plant yields roughly ~0.33 fruits every day or 5 silver every day for the initial harvest and ~0.48 fruits every day or ~7.14 silver every day for every harvest after the initial one.
• One fruit per day can be safely used up to 10 days without risking addiction. Addiction chance is 1%. None of the health ailments have any chance to occur either.

One fruit's effect lasts 16 hours. Upon finishing eating, the pawn's joy bar increases by 50% and their hunger bar increases by 20%.
Eating one plant will grant:

• +5 mood.

Ambrosia is nice. The buff pretty much lasts from morning to night (after all, pawns need 8 hours of sleep, considering normal quality beds are used). +5 mood might seem low at first but it stacks with everything else.

Despite the unreliable ways of obtaining it, it gives a buff that lasts the whole time a pawn usually spends awake of the day. This means one fruit is enough for the whole day. The perfect mid-term permanent mood boost.


Conclusion:

There are two problems. One is beer being really, really bad. This is no new story but pekoe completely obsoletes it and since RimWorld is in beta development stage, it's time for some balancing.

The other problem is pekoe being too good. Beer simply can't be buffed to the levels of pekoe without making it overpowered. Pekoe has to be nerfed too, there's no other way.

Smokeleaf still has its niche; granting the best mood buff for the longest duration, but crippling the pawn to compensate. This is the first social drug available for players and as such it performs its role well.

Ambrosia is awesome and rightly so, since players can't grow it.


How to fix beer and pekoe?

For pekoe:

First, decrease the mood buff to +8 instead of the +12. This way smokeleaf still has the niche of greatest mood buff but pekoe still feels like an upgrade because you can reach the same duration by drinking two (although not in quick succession), even though it only grants half the buffs but has no downside.

Second, decrease pekoe's market value to 12 or 10. This way flake gains its only niche of being the most profitable psychoid product back. And since pekoe is nerfed, it's fine to decrease its market value; and even a value of 10 is a value improvement over raw psychoid leaves.

For beer:

First, remove the "Buzzed" stage from beer. It will never be truly viable as long as the pawn is penalized for drinking only one, especially since it carries on this penalty no matter how many more bottles the pawn drinks. Suddenly one beer grants +8 buff for 3.6 hours instead of 1.2 hours.

Second, with such a low duration per bottle beer will never be better than pekoe. Decrease the alcohol's high effect's severity drop per day from -1 to -0.75 (and possibly do the same with hangover). Suddenly one beer lasts for 5.4 hours, close enough to pekoe.

This way beer is viable but pekoe is still better. If one really wants to make beer on par with pekoe without either decreasing beer's penalties or adding penalties to pekoe, then the mood buff has to be increased by +2 for every stage.

This way both beer and pekoe is a lot more closer to each other in terms of effects and when combined can provide the best of both worlds.

[Boston]

Historically, beer and other fermented beverages were not used to get drunk per se. Instead, they were used as a means to both preserve calories and to make water drinkable. Intoxication was just a happy side effect.

I -would- propose three changes to beer, but since it is beta im not even going to bother.

[Granitecosmos]

Historically, beer and other fermented beverages were not used to get drunk per se. Instead, they were used as a means to both preserve calories and to make water drinkable. Intoxication was just a happy side effect.

While this is true, the idea of a thirst system was scrapped for the game. If you remove that, all tha remains is the calories and intoxication. And beer in-age already raises the hunger bar.

Besides, game balance is more important than realism. The game's goal never was to achieve realism anyway.

[SpaceDorf]

Even if there was a thirst System it should counterbalance the alcoholic beverages rather than having alcohol substitute water.

I never use drugs to avoid their side effects.
The occasional joint not counted.
But Granitecosmos' summary of Drugs made me think of incorporating the stuff more.

[Sinosauropteryx]

I think beer misses the mark as a truly "social" drug. It touches on the point by increasing chance to start a social fight, but by the same token, it should lower social inhibitions and stimulate intimacy and camaraderie. Drinking beer around others should confer benefits beyond what you'd get from drinking alone, which would give it a niche that sets it apart, while more closely tying it to its real world counterpart. My suggestion? Drinking beer alongside other pawns gives an "attended a party" buff.

[Tynan]

Thanks for taking the time to write this. It seems well thought out.

We are definitely going over balance for every part of the game (there are many parts to go over!) and I'd like to take a look at this one too.

[Snafu_RW]

I think beer [...]  touches on the point by increasing chance to start a social fight, but by the same token, it should lower social inhibitions and stimulate intimacy and camaraderie. [...] My suggestion? Drinking beer alongside other pawns gives an "attended a party" buff.

I think the 'attended party' buff is too strong for this sort of interaction. Ideally there should be some sort of (specified) social interaction giving a lesser boost: "I had a really great time today <socialising> with the group!". How much work that would take to implement I've no idea, although (going back to 'emotional amplification' of alcohol) it could directly offset 'staying in room' mood breaks, if the broken pawn drinks beer while broken & someone else interacts with them positively.. or triggering 'beserker' or similar if the interaction was -ive..

Hah! Ninja'd by the master

[Yoshida Keiji]

I think beer misses the mark as a truly "social" drug. It touches on the point by increasing chance to start a social fight, but by the same token, it should lower social inhibitions and stimulate intimacy and camaraderie. Drinking beer around others should confer benefits beyond what you'd get from drinking alone, which would give it a niche that sets it apart, while more closely tying it to its real world counterpart. My suggestion? Drinking beer alongside other pawns gives an "attended a party" buff.

Absolutely agree on this. I see Granite Cosmos everyday in Discord and we have never ending discussion on a daily basis, I'm glad there's others who can see other angles too.

If we say Rim World is not entirely meant to simulate Reality to a degree, then Tynan should be just replacing human pawns with robots.

Realism is needed to a point.

Personally, I focus a lot on health, both physical and mental. To me:

Smoke users shall suffer lungs deterioration faster than those who abstain, so eventually over time, they shall have lower breathing and lose walking speed.

Alcohol consumers should, for example, lose eating efficiency as weakness to dental gum causes teeth to lose base strength.

I'm not aware of any tea negative effects. Somebody please educate me here.

Uhhhmmm....the equivalent of Ambrosia is what? Any fruit? Maybe Asai? Don't know negative effects on fruits. None I would say.

Historically, beer and other fermented beverages were not used to get drunk per se. Instead, they were used as a means to both preserve calories and to make water drinkable. [...]

As a person who is into fitness, sports and nature. It sucks that the only drink available is beer... Juice? Protein Shakes? Oh yes...we have milk...

Now  that I think of it....

Why can't we mix Chocolates with Milk and make Cocoa drinks? Yeah, Milk should be split to another category of its own. But then of course, the idea that milk is essential is only a market industry business, when soy milk is way better than animal milk.

We should be able to plant soy...and then maybe even make Tofu too

Why don't we have grapes to make wine?


Tynan: Don't forget to add the "human" side of all these power up buff items.

Smoking shall cause discomfort to others sitting around, specially in small rooms.
Alcohol should make pawn pathing erratic at its high level of intoxication and disable straight walking for example. Anyone remember Mr Hiccup? https://youtu.be/fip4eiJmbq4


There must be a balance were those who abstained gain better health in the long run, while those who dosed up all their life will require expensive medical treatments to stay alive. Their health issues must require high quality meds instead.

[SpaceDorf]

Is the drug sensitivity or dependency taken into account when the birthday sickness-lottery comes around ?

[tmo97]

you're comparing beer and pekoe too hard. remove some of the nonsense like 400% social fight chance. don't nerf/buff two things at the same time cause you're gonna get a preferential bias based on your last experiences with it. thanks for not ruining smokeleaf for me.

oh yeah, almost forgot. don't lower the market value of psychoid just because you want to nerf its effects. don't lower the market value because it's still work and if it suddenly becomes senseless to work psychoid leaves, that'll ruin psychoid's presence in the game and it'll be a slippery slope down to irrelevantville.


btw
i find the fact that people flocked to this thread because of its cognitively attractive name a sad reference to superficiality in today's cultural psychology

[Granitecosmos]

you're comparing beer and pekoe too hard.

They are both social drugs and therefore have the same ultimate goal: to be tools a player can use to temporarily boost mood while having addiction tied to medium- or long-term usage to discourage players from relying on them alone for mood. They also both require a technology to allow crafting/brewing. In fact, beer needs more research and more infrastructure while being the weaker tool for its intended purpose.

remove some of the nonsense like 400% social fight chance.

I'd love to but it's literally in the code of the game.

Code Select Expand

        <li>
          <minSeverity>0.4</minSeverity>
          <label>drunk</label>
          <painFactor>0.5</painFactor>
          <socialFightChanceFactor>4.0</socialFightChanceFactor>
          <vomitMtbDays>0.75</vomitMtbDays>
          <tale>Drunk</tale>
            <capMods>
              <li>
                <capacity>Consciousness</capacity>
                <offset>-0.35</offset>
              </li>
              <li>
                <capacity>Moving</capacity>
                <offset>-0.10</offset>
              </li>
            </capMods>
        </li>

don't nerf/buff two things at the same time cause you're gonna get a preferential bias based on your last experiences with it. thanks for not ruining smokeleaf for me.

Although usually I'd agree, pekoe is too good while beer is too bad. If we only touch one while trying to get both of them to be on roughly the same level then either beer becomes too good as well which means these two combined beat many other methods for mood buff when players combine them; or pekoe becomes as bad as beer which makes it not worth the effort (just like beer isn't worth the effort right now; it was only "worth it" in A17 and prior because smokeleaf is even worse if you want to use the pawn for something productive as well).

Smokeleaf is fine only because of the massive productivity/combat debuff it grants. It's a choice of either having an angry colonist who can do things but risking the chance of a mental break or have one content colonist wasting space because they do things very slowly (including walking so forget about hauling too). For beer, the mood buff lasts for less than 5 in-game hours after two bottles. One cup of pekoe lasts for 6 hours and has no downsides. One joint lasts for 12 hours but destroys productivity to compensate for being the easiest social drug to grow.

oh yeah, almost forgot. don't lower the market value of psychoid just because you want to nerf its effects. don't lower the market value because it's still work and if it suddenly becomes senseless to work psychoid leaves, that'll ruin psychoid's presence in the game and it'll be a slippery slope down to irrelevantville.

I didn't even mention decreasing psychoid leaves' market value. Please quote that part from the OP. What I did mention is nefing pekoe's market value. It's the same as flake right now. Flake is worse regarding provided stats compared to yayo in every way. The only difference is flake provides better profit-per-plant when sold. But right now a social drug that needs 400 research points and a crafting spot for production sells just as good as flake, a hard drug that needs two researches for a total of 900 research points as well as a proper drug lab for production; while both drugs cost the same amount of psychoid leaves to produce. Pekoe needs a slight nerf to its market value otherwise flake has no point to exist in the game since its intended niche was profitability in the first place.

But I've stated these problems in the OP anyway so surely you were aware of these issues already.

[frenchiveruti]

Hey, even tho your objective was to introduce balance, now I'll drop all my beer and flake production and focus on Pekoe thanks to you very well put post.
Thanks I guess! Ha.