Unstable build feedback thread

Started by Tynan, June 16, 2018, 11:10:34 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Teleblaster18

Quote from: TheMeInTeam on June 23, 2018, 02:16:31 PM
Food poisoning is variable IRL, but the in-game version is very rare.


Infection is annoying but perfect play can avoid it with naked brutality.  What you can't avoid with normal play is instant game over to early disease or food poisoning RNG (even cooking only in a clean room you need a high cooking skill or you lose sometimes).


Only viable opening for NB is to press ancient dangers instantly and flee the map if you can't handle what's inside --> abandon and repeat.

Naked Brutality is very, very difficult, and seemingly gets more difficult by magnitudes when you start playing in colder biomes;  so far, I've run two NB starts, (Cassandra/Rough) - my Boreal Start is up to 6 pawns, and is hanging by a slender thread...and it's by far the most fucked-up looking and poorly-organized colony that I've ever produced in 2500+ hours of gameplay, because there was no choice.  My type-A personality is repulsed.

The Naked Brutality start on a Temperate Forest with a year-round growing season was much, much easier.  Getting the absolute basic survival stuff (shelter, a ranged weapon, enough food to last more than a day) was a cakewalk by comparison.

In short:  I'm of the opinion that so much has to do with the biome that you choose to start Naked Brutality in.  So many gameplay aspects have been nerfed significantly in 1.0 that it takes a fundamental reassessment of how to effectively play colder maps. 

My most valuable personal reassessment is: start small, and stay small for a while.  There's just not enough resources on colder maps to sustain more than a small handful of pawns (2-3) through the first winter.  Others may have different experiences.

ashaffee

After the adjustments to the centipedes were made I feel like this game is much more fair but close to the nail of defeat at all times on extreme mode like it should be. It feels like I have to relearn a lot of things to be able to play a game on that difficulty for too long. Although I do feel like illness in the early game was unfair. The infection rate later on seems 100% legit and forgiving if you manage it properly.

Kill boxes strategy isn't the 1 stop shop for all success which is refreshing. If you were use to doing extreme with that tatic you probably will have to lower the difficulty while you learn new base designes that help vs sappers and mechanoids.

Just like those with mountain bases had to rethink that strategy in the past with infestations.

Teleblaster18

#422
Quote from: Roolo on June 23, 2018, 04:09:37 PM
I have to say, I like most changes in 1.0. Especially the new QOL things that are added, the bridges, the improvements for caravanning, how armour works now, and yes, I even like the training decay for animals.

There's one thing I dislike though, that mechanoids now die on being downed, and that it's no longer possible to perform operations on mechanoids (for instance shutting them down, or removing scyther blades). I can imagine for vanilla this was only a small part of functionality that could be considered clutter, and it might have been in the way when implementing the two types of scythers. However, it offered great opportunities for modders. For instance, the more mechanoids mod had some addidtional mechanoid parts that could be scavenged. Moreover, I almost finished a mod that allows mechanoid hacking, which relied on this system, and I'm disappointing to see that it's dropped. I really hope this is revised, and that the system makes its way back.

It seemed like that change (the inability to remove Scyther Blades/recover Miniguns) was motivated by trying to remove the financial benefit of them:  in the mid/late game, you could practically base an entire ecomony off of selling Scyther Blades, which were among the most valuable (and portable) trading items around.  You could load a caravan up with 12 Scyther Blades, and clean house when you reached a friendly outpost to sell them.

I'd love to see them come back because they added flavor to the gameplay, and I really hate to see cool, quirky items disappear from the narrative.  As an aside, weirdly enough, I feel the same way about the condensing of Leather Types:  the new system is much more straightforward and easy to understand, and is better overall for gameplay, but I can't tell you how many times I went through my inventory in B18 and saw leathers that reminded me of how I got them ("Where the hell did this boomrat leather come from?  Oh, yeah, the manhunter boomrat pack last year....")  What's good for gameplay doesn't necessarily translate into a good (and memorable) narrative element, and one of my favorite things about this game is how quirky, weird and incongruous it often is...and how often there are little reminders of those past game events laying around all over the place that make you pause the game for a second to reflect on them.

Back to the Scyther Blades/Gun Drop removal:  If I'm correct in assessing the motivation behind removing them, my suggestion would be to reintroduce them, but de-value the Scyther Blade to a fraction of their original value (worth at most 50 Silver apiece, maybe?), and make the Minigun/Weapon drops so that the weapon is inoperable, nearly worthless to trade, but can still be recovered and smelted.

TheMeInTeam

Quote from: Teleblaster18 on June 23, 2018, 05:55:06 PM
Quote from: TheMeInTeam on June 23, 2018, 02:16:31 PM
Food poisoning is variable IRL, but the in-game version is very rare.


Infection is annoying but perfect play can avoid it with naked brutality.  What you can't avoid with normal play is instant game over to early disease or food poisoning RNG (even cooking only in a clean room you need a high cooking skill or you lose sometimes).


Only viable opening for NB is to press ancient dangers instantly and flee the map if you can't handle what's inside --> abandon and repeat.

Naked Brutality is very, very difficult, and seemingly gets more difficult by magnitudes when you start playing in colder biomes;  so far, I've run two NB starts, (Cassandra/Rough) - my Boreal Start is up to 6 pawns, and is hanging by a slender thread...and it's by far the most fucked-up looking and poorly-organized colony that I've ever produced in 2500+ hours of gameplay, because there was no choice.  My type-A personality is repulsed.

The Naked Brutality start on a Temperate Forest with a year-round growing season was much, much easier.  Getting the absolute basic survival stuff (shelter, a ranged weapon, enough food to last more than a day) was a cakewalk by comparison.

In short:  I'm of the opinion that so much has to do with the biome that you choose to start Naked Brutality in.  So many gameplay aspects have been nerfed significantly in 1.0 that it takes a fundamental reassessment of how to effectively play colder maps. 

My most valuable personal reassessment is: start small, and stay small for a while.  There's just not enough resources on colder maps to sustain more than a small handful of pawns (2-3) through the first winter.  Others may have different experiences.

If you have enough wood to cook food as a tribe, you can feed 6+ consistently on tundra (I've yet to see a viable ice sheet start on tribal in any recent patch).

Problem with NB is it has a lot of real difficulty but also a non-trivial amount of 100% fake difficulty (die to RNG).

The heavy nerf to planting trees (might be a little much) actually nerfed deserts more than anything nerfed boreal/tundra in 1.0.  Alpha beavers hitting early in desert in NB puts you in a bad spot.

Ser Kitteh

I hope Mechanoids can be turned off/harvest for scyther blades, if only because I've been looking forward to Roolo's mechanoid mod since forever. Even if it doesn't, I hope it's in the game code somewhere so modders can use them!

Also devaluing scyther blades to like 50 Silver a pop may be a good way so as to not make the game too easy. I don't mind Centipedes automatically dying since shutting them off was just extra work, but as some modders rely on this frame, I hope it does come back. Maybe even have a very low chance to salvage the minigun off them?

PatrykSzczescie

Maybe you should stop playing NB mode if you can't stand dying for certain. Maybe this scenario mode shouldn't have been introduced as it seems to bring a significiant amount of complaints. This mode is for those who are not that perfect, but skilled enough to know pawn's age, skills, traits as well as location's biome, disease frequency, vegetation time, temperature and deal with most inconveniences. If devs implemented some features that remove this certainty of a loss in NB scenario, it would also affect the remaining scenarios, which are non-extreme ones, meaning that you'd get an easy way to make everybody pretty, healthy and rich. Years with no one dying - this is what devs are trying to avoid in a decent difficulty.

Try NB on peaceful mode and give a feedback. Once you get bored getting out of loneliness, you may start again from a base builder, and so on.

About sappers mining walls so quickly, I know a great counter to it - fight. As you do against drop pod attacks inside your base - just man up and fight your enemies. Stop depending on walls as a way to stop your enemies or manipulating them into your traps - use them as cover for your shooters and put melee fighters behind them to engage sappers into melee fight.

Teleblaster18

QuoteIf you have enough wood to cook food as a tribe, you can feed 6+ consistently on tundra (I've yet to see a viable ice sheet start on tribal in any recent patch).

For tribes, agreed.  The difference is Pemmican, which makes all the difference in the world. Tribal starts will have it, Naked Brutality doesn't, and that changes everything:  you can't stockpile any food effectively for a very long time.   

My last B18 start, I did a custom Tribal scenario: One Tribal pawn, 75 Pemmican, a Short Bow, Tribal cloth clothing, and a Warg.  Among the first things I did was secure a few days' worth of food, via campfire/pemmican.  That frees a solo pawn up to start gathering healroot, planting crops, chopping wood, additional hunting and gathering, without worrying about starving within 48 hours.

That scenario was a breeze, comparitively.  Having no way to stockpile food for longer than a day or two changes everything, and that's exactly what makes NB so tough a start.  Stockpiling *anything* is near-impossible: it's getting used as soon as it's produced.

Madman666

Brilliant idea, sir. You get up to 25-30 armored raiders with automatic weaponry like assault rifles, heavy SMGs and even a triple launcher, but all you need to do is really just confront them with your brave 14 people, 4 of which are pacifists, 2 have pieces of wood for legs, one got his eye scratched out by a mad bunny. You have mostly survival rifles, shotguns, short range machine pistols and the like, but don't let it worry you! Just man up, drop the dependency on walls and those pathetic turrets and go out with a blaze. Then get mutilated, raped and kidnapped - no big deal, you can always just start over.

Teleblaster18

#428
Quote from: PatrykSzczescie on June 23, 2018, 07:52:03 PM
Maybe you should stop playing NB mode if you can't stand dying for certain. Maybe this scenario mode shouldn't have been introduced as it seems to bring a significiant amount of complaints. This mode is for those who are not that perfect, but skilled enough to know pawn's age, skills, traits as well as location's biome, disease frequency, vegetation time, temperature and deal with most inconveniences. If devs implemented some features that remove this certainty of a loss in NB scenario, it would also affect the remaining scenarios, which are non-extreme ones, meaning that you'd get an easy way to make everybody pretty, healthy and rich. Years with no one dying - this is what devs are trying to avoid in a decent difficulty.

Try NB on peaceful mode and give a feedback. Once you get bored getting out of loneliness, you may start again from a base builder, and so on.

About sappers mining walls so quickly, I know a great counter to it - fight. As you do against drop pod attacks inside your base - just man up and fight your enemies. Stop depending on walls as a way to stop your enemies or manipulating them into your traps - use them as cover for your shooters and put melee fighters behind them to engage sappers into melee fight.

Both my Naked Brutality starts have lasted well over a game year without any deaths on Cassandra/Rough, and are still going - no deaths on either.  First colony is at 6 pawns, second colony is at 3.  I've restarted (and am doing a third re-start) to gauge the changes of the daily patches for 1.0 on gameplay, and my own strategies.

Commenting about difficulty is entirely different than complaining about it...as is noting potential scenarios which arise with 1.0 that make gameplay prohibitively difficult, if any are found.  This entire thread is about feedback and user experiences of 1.0, so...this is the place to discuss impressions and suggestions if there ever were one.

East

I think the mechnoid ships should have two advanced components. Assuming a location where you can not trade around, you need four more advanced components to produce an advanced component, which means you have to destroy four ships. It has four ships too many. I think it would be appropriate to have two ships. Also, when the ship comes, it will give you a challenging pleasure because you can do something with rewards.

Nightinggale

Quote from: Ser Kitteh on June 23, 2018, 07:34:53 PM
I hope Mechanoids can be turned off/harvest for scyther blades, if only because I've been looking forward to Roolo's mechanoid mod since forever. Even if it doesn't, I hope it's in the game code somewhere so modders can use them!
I tried look into this and it looks like Defs/PawnCapacityDefs/PawnCapacity.xml holds the answer. It has Consciousness on top and it has a bool called lethalMechanoids set. I assume setting it to false will allow mechanoids to be disabled without actually killing them.

Quote from: Ser Kitteh on June 23, 2018, 07:34:53 PMAlso devaluing scyther blades to like 50 Silver a pop may be a good way so as to not make the game too easy. I don't mind Centipedes automatically dying since shutting them off was just extra work, but as some modders rely on this frame, I hope it does come back. Maybe even have a very low chance to salvage the minigun off them?
Just make other factions reject buying mechanoid technology. It's against their religion or something. Problem solved. Another issue to consider is what if you sell lots of weapons to some faction and then they turn on you? Should you be killed by an army full of people with scyther blades or miniguns or whatever you sold them? The whole concept of selling weapons to potential future enemies is a bit weird if you start to think about it. And even if the faction in question is ok, they could be raided and then the raiders have the weapons.
Realistically speaking, some weapons should be so dangerous in the wrong hands that your best option should be to take them apart if you don't want to use them yourself.
ModCheck - boost your patch loading times and include patchmods in your main mod.

Zoolder

Quote from: Teleblaster18 on June 23, 2018, 08:06:02 PM
Quote from: PatrykSzczescie on June 23, 2018, 07:52:03 PM
Maybe you should stop playing NB mode if you can't stand dying for certain. Maybe this scenario mode shouldn't have been introduced as it seems to bring a significiant amount of complaints. This mode is for those who are not that perfect, but skilled enough to know pawn's age, skills, traits as well as location's biome, disease frequency, vegetation time, temperature and deal with most inconveniences. If devs implemented some features that remove this certainty of a loss in NB scenario, it would also affect the remaining scenarios, which are non-extreme ones, meaning that you'd get an easy way to make everybody pretty, healthy and rich. Years with no one dying - this is what devs are trying to avoid in a decent difficulty.

Try NB on peaceful mode and give a feedback. Once you get bored getting out of loneliness, you may start again from a base builder, and so on.

About sappers mining walls so quickly, I know a great counter to it - fight. As you do against drop pod attacks inside your base - just man up and fight your enemies. Stop depending on walls as a way to stop your enemies or manipulating them into your traps - use them as cover for your shooters and put melee fighters behind them to engage sappers into melee fight.

Both my Naked Brutality starts have lasted well over a game year without any deaths on Cassandra/Rough, and are still going - no deaths on either.  First colony is at 6 pawns, second colony is at 3.  I've restarted (and am doing a third re-start) to gauge the changes of the daily patches for 1.0 on gameplay, and my own strategies.

Commenting about difficulty is entirely different than complaining about it...as is noting potential scenarios which arise with 1.0 that make gameplay prohibitively difficult, if any are found.  This entire thread is about feedback and user experiences of 1.0, so...this is the place to discuss impressions and suggestions if there ever were one.

Bro on extreme I've never been in a situation like that, A18 or 1.0. If I'm being attacked by a massive raid I may be out numbered but I usually have comparable fire power. Sappers still also pour through a choke like a bunch of idiots which makes for easy pickings of people running for cover. Basic strategy and pawn placement will have you easily win any engagement like that, and if you are a ever at a point like that in a game you should have at least one disposable rocket or orbital strike to clean that shit up if you're that late game. This really just sounds like complaining from someone who needs to play on a lower difficulty. Just cause you can't handle every situation with a kill box doesn't mean the game is broke.

bootcampvictim

It would be awesome if there was some improvement in pathfinding.

Madman666

Yeah... Deathless dream of colonists actually dodgin trees instead of vaulting over.

Injured Muffalo

Impressions from my first few minutes:

- I kinda miss the old blueprints. Maybe if they were still blue but brighter they would work for everyone.

- The raspberry bush looks pretty bad. It looks like a tomato bush. Liked it better before.

- It's nice that you don't need to generate the world map in game. I assume it's front loaded, so...yeah, loading took a long time, I think, but the gameplay was smoother.

- (trivial) I would like to be able to set a default drug policy for whomever joins the colony.

- Combat log looks rather disorganized. Wildlife is "unaffiliated." Maybe if you put some kind of line break type thing between the settings in that window and where the log is it would look better.

- Wildlife tab: not sure how I feel about this. It's like a developer tool to omnisciently sense all life in the area. The ease of marking animals to train looks nice, but honestly I feel like you should have to look around and pick a good one. Seems too powerful.

So, of course it seems less polished than the stable beta ATM...the nightmare is liking the last beta more than the finished product. Watch this space.  ;)
A muffalo encountered a vimp near a patch of sweet vegetables. A struggle ensued. The muffalo gored the vimp with its horns. The vimp bit the muffalo with its beak. Finally, the vimp was bested, sending large chunks of its flesh in every direction. But the muffalo was injured. It shed a single tear.