Unstable build feedback thread

[Madman666]

...

We have mutual hate with Cass. And I've grown too attached to Randy's long periods of calm days, that can promtly end by histerical raid, after a disease, after psychic ship or everything in one day. Or it can be a nightmare of bad stuff. He has bad mood days, just like me. Its so heart-warming. I guess i also like to suffer... but in a slightly different way, heh.

Also I in turn disagree with you saying its easier to deal with raids in 1.0. Because it really isn't and almost every update there is something added or changed to force you to rely on using colonists in a straigthforward shootouts even more. The only really good tool to deal with raids is now armor, which was buffed to work properly. And i guess autocannons also somewhat useful to sponge shots (sniper turret being expensive and useless). Otherwise you have to rely on colonists to deal with everything themselves. Which is fine up to 500k wealth or something. Then it gets gross.

One day you will see an eclipse caused by hundreds of drop pods falling right on your heads, and this will be the end.

The problem is - some people don't really play it to last, they like to live a story and eventually end it by dramatically leaving, so they most likely won't ever see that eclipse of doom and won't ever care about people who will and will be very surprised, when some people complain about raid scaling or world map scalin (as i ve seen couple days before). Or about nerfing some strategies, that used to help against crazy raid sizes. Because those strategies just won't be needed in their own playthroughs.

[Awe]

Well there's still a lot of wealth locked in leather furniture instead of cloth furniture but hrm... 
Just to humour me could you post your wealth graph? curious about animal numbers. I'm a little bit suspicious that the fact that you've placed a bazillion walls might be a contributing factor.

Animals are lowest graph. Biggest part is stockpiles/equipment.

Obviously the amount of steel invested in power is eating a bunch too.. how refined is that power grid anyway? Given access to a river it's surprising that you've got so much solar. Especially with so few batteries.

I dont need more batteries. Main power consumer is sunlamps and they are pretty nice work with solars. Except the eclipse. I can counter it with batteries, but i just prefer to shut off some sunlamps for eclipse duration. Just dont like huge zzzt explosions.

What the hell is in that room just below your devilstrand? It's a 1x2 table, 6 stools and...?

Beer. =) Never did it before. Just grow some hops in 2 or 3 year, and still drinking it. =)

Fine/lavish meals are worth more than their parts but.. again I understand why you'd have a large stockpile..

500 meals for 40 man? Not a big stockpile, imho. Just a week of food.

Out of curiosity have you tried using EMP IEDs? You can't build them within.. 4? tiles of the ship without triggering it but their explosion radius is gigantic and the mechs will trigger them when they pop out quite consistently.  They're a million times better than mortars in my experience.

Im personally dont like IEDs. -_-

[attachment deleted due to age]

[Oblitus]

One day you will see an eclipse caused by hundreds of drop pods falling right on your heads, and this will be the end.

The problem is - some people don't really play it to last, they like to live a story and eventually end it by dramatically leaving, so they most likely won't ever see that eclipse of doom and won't ever care about people who will and will be very surprised, when some people complain about raid scaling or world map scalin (as i ve seen couple days before). Or about nerfing some strategies, that used to help against crazy raid sizes. Because those strategies just won't be needed in their own playthroughs.

Yes, I find myself playing this way more and more. And it feels bad. My most memorable playthrough in 1500 hours was in 0.17. It was a Rich Explorer scenario. My initial pawn was killed somewhere around 3rd year. But then I had a mod which added resurrection machine, obtained in the extremely rare event. I tucked a body into cryptosleep capsule and ended up playing more than 10 (TEN) years to resurrect that first pawn before taking off the planet. Another one, again in 0.17, was when I tried to take a caravan route to the ship, and heavily miscalculated supplies needed, so I settled to recover and ended up living there for several more years. Now I can't imagine myself doing anything like this. It ceases to be fun somewhere around year 4. I can struggle for a several more years, but it is not a fun type of struggle. All that shit that happens I can only describe as "cheesy." It stinks of fake difficulty. And I am playing on normal now, dropping 2 difficulty levels from older versions. Also, originally I was always playing on flat maps, and it felt nice, now I feel obliged to bunker up under a mountain.

[Madman666]

Well, as you ve seen - Tynan seems genuinely surprised, that people managed to hoard even more than a mil, not talking about 5 mils So I don't think he considered, that quite a lot of people actually played Rimworld in this style, not to win, but to last. Hence the changes to balance mostly made around completely different playstyle than we have. Thats of course only just my assumption. Can't read minds. To continue playing our way, without making it relatively short term "runs", we ll probably just have to rely on mods for the most part.

[Syrchalis]

How are you guys getting million+ wealth levels? What do your colonies look like? How are you playing - just to grow indefinitely?

Well, usually I like to play until I've unlocked everything and there is no point playing on anymore (then I take my leave =p). That's pretty much where I'm at with the 5.5mio colony. The journey is the goal here.
It consists of two colonies actually, as I'm trying out the possibility of having more than one colony (never got to that in B18 and before). I know it's not really part of the game to have more than one colony, so I'm not expecting everything to work perfectly.

Short answer: Mods

Long answer:
Part of the wealth is caused directly by mods. In this case it's mostly RimFactory which converts anything into paperclips and those into anything again. So I'm mining rock chunks and turn them into paperclips into Z-composite (very expensive very powerful material) - that alone probably makes up a significant amount of my wealth (especially the paperclips).

If I don't play with this or other content-heavy mods the wealth usually comes in form of gold/uranium/plasteel and expensive statues and furniture made of gold. That usually happens late enough that I could take my leave any time really. Before 1.0 that actually happened way earlier because of how much resources deep drills gave (and how quickly).

I had a big raid on my main colony and a manhunter pack on my 2nd base lately which nearly crashed the game. This was the 32bit version however. I avoided the 64bit version because it crashed a lot for me, but this isn't the case anymore. On 64bit the game runs noticeably smoother and faster. Also interesting to note: My 2nd colony gets MUCH smaller raids than the first one, so wealth per settlement is actually relevant, not overall wealth.

Damn, I said settlement, now Preston Garvey is going to come...

[attachment deleted due to age]

[YokoZar]

legendary golden royal bed - another 60k of useless wealth

Wealth bloat is effectively uncapped, and if you decidedly keep wealth low, you are missing any sense of progression quite soon.
Raids are based on wealth and scale infinitely.

This is a good insight.  Getting upgrades shouldn't feel like they hurt the player, but the game mechanics here are punishing you when you replace "good enough" parts of your base with awesome fun parts.  That super awesome bed isn't likely to prevent many mental breaks or cause many more inspirations, but it will cause all raids to be larger.

As a simple fix, I'd suggest having masterwork/legendary quality items provide "colony wealth" as though they were only excellent quality.  Or something along those lines - don't make me want to worry about maximizing colony survivability by figuring out which of my pawns can do with less.

[Madman666]

I had a big raid on my main colony and a manhunter pack on my 2nd base lately which nearly crashed the game. This was the 32bit version however. I avoided the 64bit version because it crashed a lot for me, but this isn't the case anymore. On 64bit the game runs noticeably smoother and faster. Also interesting to note: My 2nd colony gets MUCH smaller raids than the first one, so wealth per settlement is actually relevant, not overall wealth.

Damn, I said settlement, now Preston Garvey is going to come...

That actually makes me wonder, how exactly new worldmap event threat formula scales if you have more than 1 colony. Will it count both colonies and all pawns, or will it only take one into account. Hmm.

Btw, i also started out Rimworld as usual, avoiding mods and enjoyng the mess my not knowing anything turned all my plays into. After leaving planet couple times, getting used to most mechanics, i wondered how long can i last and what'll be able to kill me, if i already know every punch the game can send at me almost at any combination. And later that turned into me wanting to actually make a glitterworld-like paradise, however long it ll take me, at that point i started using mods. And with that i had most fun.

[Syrchalis]

That actually makes me wonder, how exactly new worldmap event threat formula scales if you have more than 1 colony. Will it count both colonies and all pawns, or will it only take one into account. Hmm.

It doesn't seem to scale after a certain point. Worldquests are 10-14 pawn outposts and sth like 15 Elephant manhunter packs since a long while. So that point was reached way before I got to work on a second colony.

Whats more interesting is:
Mechanoid drop in the middle of my base: pretty harmless (because they get split up in all the rooms) and it's much less of them.
Centipede mechanoid raid: quite deadly, due to infinite inferno cannon stun, but they are slow, can be kited, mortar'd, etc.
Scyther mechanoid raid: insanely deadly, 200+ scythers just overrun everything.
Humanoid raid (siege, sappers, normal etc.): pretty easily dealt with, because not durable and not melee (like scyther/centipede) - however at this point they carry around 20 rocket launchers, so yeah... they can be bad
Manhunter pack: probably the easiest, just running meat
Split up mechanoid raid: also relatively manageable, but does large damage to my base because I have to take the groups on one by one.

Note: no killbox used, not even a full wall around colony established

[Madman666]

Thats really good news, as i didn't really check on more than 500k wealth. I really don't want world map to scale any more than 10-14 enemies... Home map being a constant mess of corpses and blood is bad enough.

[Boboid]

No. The answer is No. Sure, power armor can give you an edge. Some edge. But at the end of a day, it can only buy you some time. No armor will help when you are outnumbered 1:20. Or when your pawn is set on fire and decides to run away from cover under a crossfire. You can use turrets, but you can only have so much turrets. They have an upkeep cost, they need replacements after raids, they need power, they need space. You can buy some time, but you are doomed by design. One day you will see an eclipse caused by hundreds of drop pods falling right on your heads, and this will be the end.

You're talking about a flawless game state again, because in your mind that's how rimworld should be played - flawlessly and with ~10 people. While also somehow accommodating a perpetual endgame.
Additionally this is inferential hyperbole based on a ridiculous set of assumptions and standards.
You're of the opinion that any combat that results in melee hits being exchanged is "strategically lost"
And don't even get me started on using mods in a 1.0 game in its current state.

The longest running colony I've had in 1.0 lasted 14 years and ~2.3M wealth, alternating between hard and V-hard, before enough changed that I felt it deserved a restart. At that point boredom was of greater concern than your scenario of infinite enemies overwhelming me.
I wasn't even approaching the point in the game where my steel was starting to go down which is directly linked to your theoretical doomsaying. I was still generating more steel than I could use, accelerating away away from my consumption until like.. year 11 and part of that was personal laziness. And that's without doing anything ridiculous like setting up a mining colony nearby.

Moreover - this nihilistic theorycrafting isn't even particularly relevant. The game currently has 4 end-states, loss, ship construction and launch, traveling to ship, and boredom.
And frankly I think you're more likely to get bored if you're playing even semi-optimally on Hard or below. Anyone playing on higher difficulties is deliberately putting themselves in a situation that increases the likelihood of Loss being their end-state. So long as people aren't being blind-sided and losing before any other result is even moderately feasible then that's a pretty good game state.

If you want to have more freedom of movement and choice, play a lower difficulty, it's really as simple as that.
You're not an inferior player for wanting to play a particular way, the notion that playing on a lower difficulty is somehow worse is ridiculous.
You CAN still play exactly as you were prior to the 1.0 changes, just not on the same difficulty. Is that a problem? Really?
Whatever you were doing prior to 1.0 to make it past the thresholds you can't pass now was absolutely exploiting broken game mechanics. THAT is fake difficulty right there. The fact that you can't do that anymore doesn't mean that all the experiences you want from the game have been removed.

And that's probably for the best. Muddling along and becoming bored of a colony before you win or lose is an inherently unsatisfying experience, as was watching every raid kill itself on 400 deadfall traps.
You were technically " winning " but I guarantee that given you feel " obligated " to be in a mountain base that you'd agree it wasn't satisfying.

Don't get me wrong - There are exceptions in the current game state, some raid types scale weirdly like Scythers and melee sappers. Both of which suffer from critical mass more than most other threat types. There are flaws, but - Being able to play forever can easily make the game worse.
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Animals are lowest graph. Biggest part is stockpiles/equipment

Yes I assumed animals would be the smallest contributor but that's not really the point, animals could be 32% of your colony wealth and still be the smallest contributor I'm just wondering how much wealth you're investing in meat production. The cost of the animals themselves and the upkeep of them have to be considered.
In regards to power consumption you might find water/geo power to be sufficient given the river's surface area, just an idea. Each to their own.

Beer. =)

Oh right, duh, I can see it now Yeah it can last a long time.. Can't say I've found it particularly useful personally, wonder what the value is on all that.

In regards to food - Yeah as I said I understand why you'd want a reserve - I've run similarly large colonies and you can function with a smaller reserve so long as your productivity can handle being slowed down by disease or injury.

Im personally dont like IEDs. -_-

Well, they're effective tool that's all I'm sayin', mechanoids are a nail, emp is the hammer. I've actually taken to putting IEDS in uhh.. inappropriate locations around my base.. Like my freezer and workshop.. and hospital. Helps mitigate drops if there's a particular mech type that you're not set to counter. Being non-destructive is a serious bonus. I did briefly toy with standard IEDs but found they could lead to.. unintended? destruction

We have mutual hate with Cass.

Oh I don't hate Cass, I generally prefer it. Each to their own of course - Though I'll admit it winds me up when people complain about losing to large attacks when playing Randy given his underlying mechanics.. and description

Also I in turn disagree with you saying its easier to deal with raids in 1.0. Because it really isn't and almost every update there is something added or changed to force you to rely on using colonists in a straigthforward shootouts even more. The only really good tool to deal with raids is now armor, which was buffed to work properly. And i guess autocannons also somewhat useful to sponge shots (sniper turret being expensive and useless). Otherwise you have to rely on colonists to deal with everything themselves. Which is fine up to 500k wealth or something. Then it gets gross.

So you're telling me that.. armor is better, autocannons exist, deadfall traps still work, IEDs are easier to manufacture, and the discrepancy in combat-quality between colonists and raiders on a per-person basis has trended towards colonists, you have more colonists per enemy attacker than in previous versions, and that's bad?
As to the wealth - It really does depend on where you're investing it. There's an incredibly non-linear connection between how much wealth you need to spend to keep colonists functioning throughout the game. The % of your wealth dedicated to defense is really important.
It really boils down to playstyle. I see a lot of people get complacent in the late game, invest in expensive trivialities that don't do much (Looking at you, 60k wealth golden royal bed), and then die as a result.
And I'm not defending that interaction. The wealth modifiers on legendary items in particular can sometimes cause huge spikes in game difficulty, as can certain raid types against certain base designs.
Sometimes it's a bad interaction that the player is unduly punished for, other times it's not.

Edit: Typos

[Syrchalis]

I have my own little private mod which modifies some defs, including the wealth modifier by quality so legendary is just x3 not x6.

Honestly I think wealth should be calculated SOLELY on base market value, excluding PARTICULARLY the quality. Why? The player looks to cheat the system. This gives him the option to do so in a non-cheesy fair way.

Imagine it this way: You use armor and weapons that are worn out and low quality: Raid is as strong as if those were normal quality and 100% durability, you get (slightly) punished for using bad quality. You use good quality equipment. Raid is still same strength, but you have a slight edge because your equipment is good. You use excellent/masterwork/legendary equipment: Raid is STILL same strength, but now you have a big edge because you have excellent equipment.

You get rewarded for good quality by enemies being easier. Right now it's the other way around. Good quality gear gives less of a bonus to you, as player, than it gives the AI/enemy by inflating wealth so much.

And having luxurious rooms and furniture actually gets you punished, as their bonuses are really small (like 1-4 mood points) for a HUGE increase in raid size.

I think part of Rimworlds balance problems stems from the issue that some keep their wealth artificially low and face relatively weak enemies (maybe too weak?) others give their colonists all the luxury and face strong raids. Meanwhile their defense/fighting power is the same though.

[Madman666]

Armor is better (that one i really like), autocannons exist (they even hit once in a couple raids, yay), traps still work (good luck hoping for sappers to dig into them or drop pods to drop into them and I don't like turning my whole base into one huge ass trapped hallway), IEDs are easier to manufacture (wasting components on 1time use traps, how luxurious can you get? and also good luck waiting for enemies stepping into them). Yeah, ratio wealth-raider was nerfed, but since raids have no cap at all, it really just comes to having couple more hundred wealth.

And what, do we absolutely need to turn our base into one big F-ing killbox, with turrets substituting for walls and traps instead of doors? Well, i don't like that idea at all. Sure you can invest like a mil into defenses, saturating every free tile of space you have with something, that'll make someone hurt, but if you still live in a stone shack eating pemmican and throwing horseshoes for fun, where will be any kind feeling of progression?

[JavaWho]

How are you guys getting million+ wealth levels? What do your colonies look like? How are you playing - just to grow indefinitely?

I have not reached 1 million in unstable 1.0 because i keep trying new biomes, missions and moving, but i have reached 400,00 mark.  Traps cause a massive increase in wealth, quality furnishings, armor etc.. In b18  often had bases of 2 mil and loved taking on hundreds of mechs and raiders.  Since unstable 1.0 i have not been able to do this because it is too hard for me at the moment as i try to sort out a game plan with the new mechanics to make a base of that value.  I guess i could start on medium or less build and build and then change the difficulty but where it the fun in that?

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1437098091 as good as i have been able to do with unstable 1.0

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1367526112 B18 base worth over 2 mil that I absolutely loved

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1437103032  And a literal "RIMWORLD" base just for fun


These bases are always a blast, but i have to admit I cannot take on in Unstable 1.0 in any shape or form (Hard) what i was able to take on in Extreme B18, A17, A16 etc..  But I am trying to learn.

Past versions, raids in action pics
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1433665527
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1382222257
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1436002576

I loved the tornadoes ripping through bases worth 2 million and forcing me to rebuild just like an infestation would
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1383967260

These pics may not mean much to everyone else but they are my entertainment,my fun and I really hope that I can still have this same type of fun in 1.0. 

[Syrchalis]

Wealth influencing enemy strength is logical, realistic and I honestly love that mechanic. It's just the quality interaction I dislike.

About my 5.5mio colony - I have I think 10 or 100 million paperclips, which means I can suck every trader empty for everything they got. I can transform those paperclips into most materials (albeit slowly). However the downside of having such a huge stock is the massive raids. And it makes sense that your wealth attracts raiders.

^That right there is what I love about that mechanic.

Crafting good gear/furniture and providing luxury getting you more punished than rewarded, that's what I hate about it.

This is my experience and has been since I started in A15. I nearly always play with my personal mod reducing the quality modifier of high quality gear.

[PleaseBro]

I see people complain about centipedes but they are not an issue in my case. I have fought one so far and it was kinda like a tank, it only had 1 support melee bot that my 4 melee fighters could handle and then my 7 shooters took it down. I now have 2 good LMG's which I imagine will do ok against them (before I took it down using pistols and bolt actions pretty much).

On Naked brutality the game was much nicer and easier to me but also gave me less pawns until I hit a certain point. Maybe it's all wealth related.

I am doing crashed landed now and I am getting way more raids, events for new members, etc.
So for research if I am doing crash landed I rush fabrication maybe getting batteries, AC, beer, devilstrand, electric smelting, geo power, machine, and smithing. From there you can do whatever without much worry.
This run I am trying to research everything before building a ship and flying off and seeing how long that takes.

Cassandra rough regular start. day 160 at 100k wealth.

At my estimates I will probably have a ship built before 400k wealth and be offworld.

Probably gonna try a get to the ship run next but I imagine it requires drop pods researched soon.