Door nerfs, killbox nerfs, more sappers, armor buffs, etc

[giltirn]

It's clear that Tynan has a goal in mind with these changes, specifically for us to fight out in the open mano a mano and forgo base defenses. But I wonder - does anyone really want this? One of my biggest pleasures in this game is designing a well-thought-out base layout that allows me to defend effectively against overwhelming odds. I tend to play with only 5 or 6 colonists, and so even a single stray bullet could be a major setback. Every fight is a battle of attrition, using doors and carefully placed walls to fight from relative safety, maximizing my damage to them and minimizing it to me. It is a game of tactics, and preparation. But if every raid is going to melt through my doors and walls, why would I bother building any of this? Also, what are we supposed to be doing instead? Just standing behind sandbags and hitting fast-forward?

[5thHorseman]

I smell theorycrafting but assuming you are correct, I agree. The thrust of this game is keeping your people safe, not FPS twitchkilling all the bad guys.

[Jibbles]

I kind of support most of it since we have a toggle for auto-build destroyed structures.

The door nerf was long overdue IMO. I can't tell you how many times I ignored a pack of manhunter animals or raiders beating on my stone/plasteel doors in previous versions. Think about how high their hp were... There are some players who refuse to make walls anything other than granite cause of the hp. If something was able to tear it down then something is up with the strategy in most cases. Of course there are times you're outnumbered it wouldn't take long for a door to come down, but you should have backup plans for that. You should be hitting them before they get to it. And Tactics to deal with them while they're knocking it down.

With 1.0, I understand the threats will spread out more aggressively and that you can't be everywhere at once especially with the amount of pawns you prefer to play with.  It's okay if your perimeters/structures get destroyed, just focus on minimizing the damage and keeping your pawns alive. Lots of changes were made in this update so gotta adjust. Try new strategies and base layouts if your old ones aren't working. 

[Oblitus]

It's okay if your perimeters/structures get destroyed, just focus on minimizing the damage and keeping your pawns alive.

And this is exactly the problem. A lot of changes are about forcing you to use your pawns in direct, close combat, massively nerfing any ways to avoid it. And direct combat in Rimworld is a massive RNGfest.

[giltirn]

It's okay if your perimeters/structures get destroyed, just focus on minimizing the damage and keeping your pawns alive.

And this is exactly the problem. A lot of changes are about forcing you to use your pawns in direct, close combat, massively nerfing any ways to avoid it. And direct combat in Rimworld is a massive RNGfest.

Agreed. In most encounters we are massively outgunned and outmanned - our only defense is our wits and our preparation. If you nerf all of our actual defensive strategies then we are just rolling the dice over and over until we get a 1; game over. This is boring. If anything we should be seeing defensive strategies being buffed. I don't mean killboxes, but things like traps, embrasures and moats should all be in the base game.

I do find it strange how all of the other events in Rimworld are overcome by planning and foresight, but raids are just down to luck?

I apologize that this is theorycrafting and I deliberately did not post in the main 1.0 discussion because of this. I do feel however that communicating such overarching balance issues can't be conveyed in blow-by-blows of individual raids. It's more of a philosophy of how raids fit into the game.

[giltirn]

The door nerf was long overdue IMO. I can't tell you how many times I ignored a pack of manhunter animals or raiders beating on my stone/plasteel doors in previous versions.

Isn't that the point of walls and doors though? To keep wildlife out? I always considered manhunter packs like any other environmental factor such as toxic fallout or cold snaps. You attack them head-on if you are capable, otherwise you hunker down and pray your stores hold over until the situation improves. If you have an uber killbox then manhunter packs are trivialized, but otherwise they are a real danger, especially in the early year when supplies are already dwindling. If the things are just going to batter down your doors then it boils down to close-quarters combat, which means severe wounds, infections, a wrecked base. And there's nothing you can do to prepare for it!

[Jibbles]

It's okay if your perimeters/structures get destroyed, just focus on minimizing the damage and keeping your pawns alive.

And this is exactly the problem. A lot of changes are about forcing you to use your pawns in direct, close combat, massively nerfing any ways to avoid it. And direct combat in Rimworld is a massive RNGfest.

I'm not denying it. I felt more RNG was introduced in my games while playing this unstable version. When I think about the causes it's not the nerfing of doors killboxes etc.  Buffing them or not making changes only clouds the flaws in systems that needs to be more solid IMO. So I don't have much to say against those changes.  I understand when people get upset over it cause how those type of changes my not gel well with the overall experience (in games current state) and simply not match players standards or expectations.  I like to assume that Tynan's end goal isn't about making the game rng-fest as you say, so I try not fret over it.

[Jibbles]

The door nerf was long overdue IMO. I can't tell you how many times I ignored a pack of manhunter animals or raiders beating on my stone/plasteel doors in previous versions.

Isn't that the point of walls and doors though? To keep wildlife out? I always considered manhunter packs like any other environmental factor such as toxic fallout or cold snaps. You attack them head-on if you are capable, otherwise you hunker down and pray your stores hold over until the situation improves. If you have an uber killbox then manhunter packs are trivialized, but otherwise they are a real danger, especially in the early year when supplies are already dwindling. If the things are just going to batter down your doors then it boils down to close-quarters combat, which means severe wounds, infections, a wrecked base. And there's nothing you can do to prepare for it!

The hp to stone door is high enough to do that.  If you build out wood then prepare to get wreck.  There is also plasteel.  I believe my pawns level up faster in this update, so a pawn with high construction skills can repair faster.  Animals who have high dps and agile are indeed a threat, up to you if you're going to face it or wait it out.  Or pop in a few shots and wait for them to bleed out.  It's pretty rare in my experience not to have control over manhunter packs. (Except when they occur and your pawn is out in the boonies and maybe some during caravan)

[TheMeInTeam]

I kind of support most of it since we have a toggle for auto-build destroyed structures.

The door nerf was long overdue IMO. I can't tell you how many times I ignored a pack of manhunter animals or raiders beating on my stone/plasteel doors in previous versions. Think about how high their hp were... There are some players who refuse to make walls anything other than granite cause of the hp. If something was able to tear it down then something is up with the strategy in most cases. Of course there are times you're outnumbered it wouldn't take long for a door to come down, but you should have backup plans for that. You should be hitting them before they get to it. And Tactics to deal with them while they're knocking it down.

With 1.0, I understand the threats will spread out more aggressively and that you can't be everywhere at once especially with the amount of pawns you prefer to play with.  It's okay if your perimeters/structures get destroyed, just focus on minimizing the damage and keeping your pawns alive. Lots of changes were made in this update so gotta adjust. Try new strategies and base layouts if your old ones aren't working.

I'm not sure what mystic "backup plans" you're implying, but the hp nerf won't change the reality here.  AI alteration could, same with rules for how quickly doors shut or something.  But a flat hp nerf?  That's out of touch.

[Ilya]

Basebuilding is fine, but the whole door stuff has to stop. It's a senseless strategy that would never work in real life. Enemies would just stand in front of the doors and shoot as soon as there was an opening, but that's not possible in Rimworld. There should be more different ways to defend in general. Trenches in particular should definitely be added. Maybe watchtowers too.

[TheMeInTeam]

Basebuilding is fine, but the whole door stuff has to stop. It's a senseless strategy that would never work in real life. Enemies would just stand in front of the doors and shoot as soon as there was an opening, but that's not possible in Rimworld. There should be more different ways to defend in general. Trenches in particular should definitely be added. Maybe watchtowers too.

Certainly, but you don't fix this by reducing door HP, because that doesn't really address the issue.

You fix it with AI patterns like "concentrate those shots onto the door to risk breaching it", or "give weapons warmup times or doors shut times that make firing through doors more consistent" or "enemy melee camps recently opened doors and will step into an open tile if opened again".

Running door micro vs machine pistols is way more dangerous than it is against snipers for example.  There's a reason for this, and that reason isn't how much HP the door has.

[giltirn]

Basebuilding is fine, but the whole door stuff has to stop. It's a senseless strategy that would never work in real life. Enemies would just stand in front of the doors and shoot as soon as there was an opening, but that's not possible in Rimworld. There should be more different ways to defend in general. Trenches in particular should definitely be added. Maybe watchtowers too.

I don't know, doors were pretty effective in medieval castles. You'd have your main gate as the major focal point, which the enemy would try to batter down because it would allow a quick influx of many attackers into the castle at once, overwhelming the defenders. There would also be numerous sally ports for the defenders to issue quick counter-attacks and flanking maneuvers. No-one in their right mind would open a door to take a potshot because they could just shoot out of an embrasure or from the crenelations. IMO we should have embrasures in the base game, which would render door-cheese redundant without simultaneously nerfing defense.

[Oblitus]

Basebuilding is fine, but the whole door stuff has to stop. It's a senseless strategy that would never work in real life. Enemies would just stand in front of the doors and shoot as soon as there was an opening, but that's not possible in Rimworld. There should be more different ways to defend in general. Trenches in particular should definitely be added. Maybe watchtowers too.

I don't know, doors were pretty effective in medieval castles. You'd have your main gate as the major focal point, which the enemy would try to batter down because it would allow a quick influx of many attackers into the castle at once, overwhelming the defenders. There would also be numerous sally ports for the defenders to issue quick counter-attacks and flanking maneuvers. No-one in their right mind would open a door to take a potshot because they could just shoot out of an embrasure or from the crenelations. IMO we should have embrasures in the base game, which would render door-cheese redundant without simultaneously nerfing defense.

It makes sense, but unfortunetely it adds a way to avoid danger which is against base game rule: any danger should always be able to wheck you irregardless of preparations.

[TheMeInTeam]

Basebuilding is fine, but the whole door stuff has to stop. It's a senseless strategy that would never work in real life. Enemies would just stand in front of the doors and shoot as soon as there was an opening, but that's not possible in Rimworld. There should be more different ways to defend in general. Trenches in particular should definitely be added. Maybe watchtowers too.

I don't know, doors were pretty effective in medieval castles. You'd have your main gate as the major focal point, which the enemy would try to batter down because it would allow a quick influx of many attackers into the castle at once, overwhelming the defenders. There would also be numerous sally ports for the defenders to issue quick counter-attacks and flanking maneuvers. No-one in their right mind would open a door to take a potshot because they could just shoot out of an embrasure or from the crenelations. IMO we should have embrasures in the base game, which would render door-cheese redundant without simultaneously nerfing defense.

It makes sense, but unfortunetely it adds a way to avoid danger which is against base game rule: any danger should always be able to wheck you irregardless of preparations.

Actually, no.  That goes against the actual implementation for the overwhelming majority of all events in Rimworld outright.

Events wrecking player regardless of their preparation or input is not real difficulty.  The ability to prepare and execute is what separates good players from bad ones.  Equalizing that is removing the importance of skill to outcome, and removing any coherent reasoning to balance anything along with it.  That's not how Rimworld operates, and it's not a matter of opinion.

[giltirn]

It makes sense, but unfortunetely it adds a way to avoid danger which is against base game rule: any danger should always be able to wheck you irregardless of preparations.

I disagree. Most dangers in the came can be overcome with virtually no chance of wreckage given sufficient preparation. Toxic fallout (manage exposure, maintain decent stores), cold snap (good clothing, heating equipment or emergency wood), heat wave (passive coolers, sufficient AC units on freezers), blight (good crop layout, quick reaction to threat), disease (maintain adequate medical supplies, try to have at least 2 decently trained medics), mad animal(s) (maintain adequate food supplies, keep colonist indoors unless prepared), poison/psychic ship (build defenses around ship with traps, careful placement of grenadiers, careful hit and run sniping or just nuke the buggers with mortars). The only adaptive dangers in the game are raids, and the preparation for those is the fundamental constraint on base building. If you make it so that raids essentially ignore defenses, either through their ability to tunnel through walls or batter down doors, you remove our ability to prepare and thus remove half the game.