[1.2] Apparello v2.2.2 Dawn of newer deluxier edition [02/03/2021]

Shinzy · November 11, 2014, 12:34:29 PM

Quote from: Killaim on November 11, 2014, 11:48:21 AM
i tried to make hellstone metal - but it made strohmite instead.

I even tested all the recipes thrice! (can I blame this on Tynan for having the cataracts be so common?)

Ima fix it asap (And then hire a tester with the ability to tell colours from eachother and hopefully someone more attentive than me =P)

Edit: Grape news everyone! ~~I've fixed the poison slime pipes~~ Small update! Fabricating devilstone now fabricates devilstone
Also added "Strohmite" cause that sounded like fun name for a material (Yes, I'm looking at you Killaim!)

And finished/added the Prototype helmet that I was already started to make (it makes your colonist learn,work,shoot and go insane much faster)
craftable in the SAR-Device Assembly thing
probably added some new flaws/bugs and errors aswell just to spite you all! =P

StorymasterQ · November 11, 2014, 08:03:49 PM

If we're adding new minerals, may I suggest Cummingtonite?

Killaim · November 11, 2014, 08:16:17 PM

Quote from: Shinzy on November 11, 2014, 12:34:29 PM

Also added "Strohmite" cause that sounded like fun name for a material (Yes, I'm looking at you Killaim!)

hah

i went from memory lol - bad memory

but yay

Cat123 · November 13, 2014, 04:46:29 PM

Ok, found the correct thread (and a much shinier version).

First off: I'm aware I might sound waspish, but this mod is excellent - the sprite work and creativity are AAA standard, so thanks for making it. I 100% see the amount of time & effort you've put in, and the quality is very much A*. (In fact, I'd want this to be in the Rimworld Beta as default, but that's between you and Tynan - but the benefit it would give to the vanilla game is worth it).

Bear in mind I'm currently using the TTM version, and only had time to read 10 pages of the thread: if my points are out of date, I'll look further into it. (Not sure if the current new version works with TTM - I presume I can d/l the new version, disable the TTM one and I'm good to go, but it'll have to wait for later).

That bit done, on with the criticism:

1) Do you have an excel sheet listing all the various armor %s? If not, you need one; if you do, please bundle it with the mod. It's essential! Both in terms of balancing and in terms of seeing the overall effects. I suggest <Body Part> on the X axis and <Material> on the Y axis for easy reference, ordered by <position> for <Body Part> (start at the head, work downwards) and tier / expense / quality for the <Material> (cloth -----> Hyperweave). If you don't have this already, it would explain some things.

2) Gameplay wise, the mod is a disaster: with layering stacking, no combination should be in excess of 100% unless there's extremely good reasons for it. At the moment you're pushing 400% bonuses, which is insane (and breaks the game mechanics very badly).

3) You need to bear in mind the difference between single <Body Part> covers and combined ones: at the moment, single pieces > total armors because of stacking and single items >100%. Power armor in particular should have been a huge warning: it's vanilla, and look at the defenses!

4) You've stated that all these materials should be very similar because they're only there for the colors: totally wrong way to go about it, and wastes most of the potential of the mod. If you want to color the items, just make a tint machine. <Item> + <Dye> = <Colored Item>. The materials should, 100% be noticeably different otherwise there's no point to them. You've also plumped for each material having a single damage type it's good against (at least in the TTM build: I'm slowly replacing all the TTM bundle with the actual mods, so bear with me): this is fine, and will prove useful as the alpha continues. i.e. when other damage types than piercing become more common.

5) Material costs: again, unbalanced and have flat rates (i.e. X item uses 50 of each material). This might be a drawback to the way the engine applies materials (100% sure of this) and you don't want to make 1,000,000 separate entries for each combination.

There's two ways to solve this:

EITHER: Alter the processing costs dramatically. The synthetic fabricator costs for producing the materials need urgently scaling so that each better type of material uses more raw stuff / rarer items for the higher end ones (*cough* hyperweave *cough*).

OR: you expand the Schematic IDs - so that each material type uses a different ID, and each ID has a variable cost. e.g. Make them non-tradable, add a schematic making machine, then pump the costs up / down for each schematic type. So your "Hyperweave Processing Chip" ID might take 400 utility metal + rare goods, while your others take a lot less. It'd be a P.I.T.A to enter the lists, but at least you'll have variable cost control.

This is important, because otherwise any difference in stats means the player will only ever use the highest one.

6) The synthetic fabricator breaks down all types into cloth. If you implement #5, it should break down <type> into <base material>.

7) You've mentioned that you've removed some of the materials from spawning randomly on base raiders - I can see why. However, you should bundle your own events so that some get used. Some examples with 1 min of thinking: Bunch of Rogue Marines (high difficulty threshold colony wealth) - bunch of angry Doom Marines charging in full marine / SF weapon gear. Space Rustlers - self evident. Cannibal Holocaust - large group of rampaging high melee types rushing for food... And so on.

I notice you've started making ores / raw material / walls. Please tell me you've considered the RNG effect of removing the % chances of core gameplay elements like metals? If they spawn on a separate layer [Map generation layer] than the core ones, then fine: if not, you just fucked the pooch. This has the potential to make the game unplayable.

9) Item synergies: there are certain items from this mod that combined with other mods can be totally OP (yes, not 100% your fault). In particular, the 'devil helmets' that add +15% workspeed -10% learning - throw those on MAIs with the 100% hit SF sniper guns and you've a workforce that's unbreakable, unstoppable and so on. The actual question: for items that alter <special> classes, do you weight the effect? i.e. -10% learning is meaningless if you've endgame colonists (15+ skills).

10) I really hate the doctor garb aesthetic: the 'mad doctor' vibe is overdone, and I've a feeling I know the specific reference it's sourced from. But that's not important, personal opinion, just seeing if you've read this far.

Anyhow. Waiting on the answer to #1. If you don't have that sheet, it can be produced.

Shinzy · November 13, 2014, 05:56:32 PM

Quote from: Cat123 on November 13, 2014, 04:46:29 PM
*meow*

I have thought about some kind of visual chart! (especially after I learned about how much you can stack armor on eachother, I did make one quick one of on what layer all the apparel are on but it's lacking lot of information still)
Imma try to cobble together something over the weekend =P
listing all the percentages is alot of effort though considering I really have to redo all of them next alpha again and still possibly frequently tweak them all the time (Alpha 8 is still a great opportunity to further balance things!)

most of the 400% deflections for things like fire comes a lot from the fact how little threat I've found them to be in the vanilla so I didn't really 'care' so much with them when I made the materials (also having made them all in a one huge bundle so individually separating them from eachother was bit of an effort! so I kept the piercing defence mostly the same on all of them (few exceptions)
I do want to have them protect from different things and be noticeably different from eachother
But I'd also like the game to have some variation with the damage types that kill your colonists -> in most cases it's bullets. There's currently no reason to make armor out of anything that doesn't protect you from bullets

But I admit it's bit of an mess still! I will work them out slowly

I would have just made them flat out colourable but there's some flaws in the new stuff system that I could just make the easy <dye>+<item>=Dyed item (I would have made it that way if I could, but imma not bore you with the details =P)
And I really don't have the skill to make really advanced pick your colour from a rgb colour slider *dreams*

All the ores are craftable in similar way to the fabrics so they won't be dotting the map at all! (I don't know if this qualifies for getting the pooch but I'd like it very much!) My 'coding' skills are very limited. You've already noted in the couple first lines where my talents lie

(thank you, by the way!)

and I remember reading from some thread of IthcyFlea's some time ago that the ore generation was changed in the last alpha to be lot more difficult to apply aswell ^{(Citation needed)}

6) I've recruited Skully to help me work on retrieving the <base material> from the <type> as you've suggested, it may or may not happen far far in the future

Ooh if you'd have any suggestions towards the material costs on the craftable items cause I'd have to play a whole lot more to get some scale of the 'ideal' costs
Making ID cards for each material was on my mind from the start but I scratched that idea off real fast (You really really don't want to have dozen of very limited use cards lying about in your lair) ofc I could bundle them fabrics in few separate cards 'Crummy fabric card, not so crummy fabric card, fabulous fabric card' and each would contain the id's for several mats of their own quality tier

7) These are something I'd like to keep separate from the mod (sort of modular addons =P) (I have planned adding several factions once I got more unique gear solely for them)

did I miss anything? (I'm exhausted now! whew..Typing.. it's.. it's tough)
*collapse*

Cat123 · November 13, 2014, 06:34:39 PM

Quote from: Shinzy on November 13, 2014, 05:56:32 PM
<OMG WALL OF TEXT>

*Pets heavily*

I can see the issue now, but thanks for the reply.

Yes, you need that excel sheet. If it's all in your head [TM] and the XML, I'll put one together. However, I'm assuming that the base % mods are static for materials? (I'm praying). If you've made them variable dependent on <Body Part> this is going to be a lot more work. Rule of thumb: given that power armor is 80% coverage, if you balance items that can be stacked x3 to be maximum 25-30% you're in the right ballpark. i.e. hyperweave = 30%, we then work downwards.

Something you've not done, but could consider if you want high % reductions - negative bonuses. e.g. -% heat (so it increases heat damage) and so on. Yes, your POLYESTER jumpsuit is a fire hazard

TL;DR

Quick version: with an excel sheet + vanilla data, we can balance this in about a day. If you're not familiar with excel, just ask & I can look at it over the weekend.

Shinzy · November 16, 2014, 08:37:13 AM

Excel sheet! contains all the clothes (hats or batteries not included)
And their base armor values layers and body parts they cover
(Adding all the material modifiers + stuff would be too much work. Shinzy + Too much work = Ef this buggeroo! -> goes shopping)

Looks like this;

Th-th-that is all! (Excel file in attachements)

Edit: May lack some data =P + they're all drawn from my version which may have some different values

[attachment deleted by admin: too old]

Lightbulb500 · November 16, 2014, 08:43:45 AM

Love the mod and thanks for the Excel sheet!

Is there a list somewhere of what each material's advantages are in general? (Rather than on every individual piece of gear which would take an age to produce!

)

Shinzy · November 16, 2014, 09:09:16 AM

Quote from: Lightbulb500 on November 16, 2014, 08:43:45 AM
Love the mod and thanks for the Excel sheet!

Is there a list somewhere of what each material's advantages are in general? (Rather than on every individual piece of gear which would take an age to produce! )

I'll try to add them on a separate page or sheet or what they are called on the Excel file
But for now you can check them with your notepad straight from the files
Mods/Apparello/ThingDefs/Materials_Apparello.xml <- which you can open with the notepad

you'll see the stats in bits like these

Code Select

      <statOffsets>
        <DamageDeflection_Blunt>0.03</DamageDeflection_Blunt>
        <DamageDeflection_Piercing>0.03</DamageDeflection_Piercing>
        <DamageDeflection_Heat>0</DamageDeflection_Heat>
        <DamageDeflection_Electric>0.03</DamageDeflection_Electric>
        <DamageDeflection_Toxic>0.03</DamageDeflection_Toxic>
      </statOffsets>
      <statFactors>
        <MarketValue>2.5</MarketValue>
        <DamageDeflection_Blunt>2.0</DamageDeflection_Blunt>
        <DamageDeflection_Piercing>1.0</DamageDeflection_Piercing>
        <DamageDeflection_Heat>-8.0</DamageDeflection_Heat>
        <DamageDeflection_Electric>5.0</DamageDeflection_Electric>
        <DamageDeflection_Toxic>1.5</DamageDeflection_Toxic>
      </statFactors>

It's not the most convenient way to see them but it'll give you some idea =P

Lightbulb500 · November 16, 2014, 09:16:25 AM

Quote from: Shinzy on November 16, 2014, 09:09:16 AM
snip

In hindsight that is really obvious

Thanks!

skullywag · November 16, 2014, 10:36:56 AM

psssst Sinzy can I get a bug chitin armour type texture dealy that I can pinch for a certain other mod...im gonna add a couple of drops to the "bears". No rush as always whenever youre bored..of...making...armour....well damn.

Iwillbenicetou · November 16, 2014, 06:43:18 PM

Hey, Shinzy, can you make one of these:

or these:

or these

Man this is almost an image spam

Dragoon · November 16, 2014, 07:55:36 PM

Quote from: Iwillbenicetou on November 16, 2014, 06:43:18 PM
-snip-

Those looks cool (however I think the 2nd one isn't an apparel thing ( it's like a mobliesuit ) and the last one is straight up a robot/andriod)

NoImageAvailable · November 17, 2014, 02:59:54 AM

Quote from: Iwillbenicetou on November 16, 2014, 06:43:18 PM
Man this is almost an image spam

Not just almost, if you're gonna post such large images you should just put a link there.

Shinzy · November 17, 2014, 03:55:17 AM

Quote from: NoImageAvailable on November 17, 2014, 02:59:54 AM
Quote from: Iwillbenicetou on November 16, 2014, 06:43:18 PM
Man this is almost an image spam
Not just almost, if you're gonna post such large images you should just put a link there.

Oh you just jelly NiA cause you don't have any of your own available
Yusss! *fistpump* *pa dam tschh!!*

I have actually made sketches of something very similar like the last one there
And the second one I'd guess (It's very hard to do 'mech' suits when you have to remove the legs and so =P but there's gna be some doctor octopus like claws sticking out the back and it'll be nice constructey yellow.. More like the Aliens mechsuit but still not quite)

Suits are the things that take longest to do for me. There's a lot of repetition so =P
and I'm not nice and organised like as to do little bit a day or something to get further with stuff *shakes head*
So don't go expecting anything just yet, okay?