How to bring the colonies out into the open again?

[EarthyTurtle]

Speaking of abusing the AI, if the AI is calculating how many forces it sends at you based solely on the potential "rewards" (IE, how "rich" the player is,) then that's effed up, because you can abuse that by keeping your colony "poor".

Bandits would rather attack poor people than nobody, and they'd rather attack nobody than heavily-armed, entrenched paranoids. They certainly wouldn't gather up an army of dozens or hundreds and attack a band of armed-to-the-teeth lunatics who've had time to prepare their defenses.

I believe the current system employs a mixture of your colonist #, defenses and your scores, plus an ever increasing difficulty factor that as far as we know has no 'cap'. So potentially raid sizes continue to grow each wave without limit. Definitely a new algorithm is needed, tomorrow I will begin working on one for lulz. It might lead to something who knows .

[jaeden25]

Dwarfing is not a problem. Fortressing is not a problem. Convincing the AI to do stupid shit is not a problem.

What is a problem is that the player is under such extreme pressure to prepare to defend against physical assault that the only way for someone who is not a god of micromanaging combat to survive the physical assault is to do those things.

If players want to dwarf, if they want to build doom-castles, let them. Those resource expenditures are their own opportunity cost; a colonist building fortifications or digging chambers isn't erecting beds or farming.

Speaking of abusing the AI, if the AI is calculating how many forces it sends at you based solely on the potential "rewards" (IE, how "rich" the player is,) then that's effed up, because you can abuse that by keeping your colony "poor".

Bandits would rather attack poor people than nobody, and they'd rather attack nobody than heavily-armed, entrenched paranoids. They certainly wouldn't gather up an army of dozens or hundreds and attack a band of armed-to-the-teeth lunatics who've had time to prepare their defenses.

You can pause the game to micromanage, which makes things easier.

[ShadowDragon8685]

If I wanted to play a sci-fi pause-based-real-time-strategy game casting my mooks against overwhelming odds, I'd dust off UFO: Afterlight. At least then my mooks' skills increase at a pace that actually has meaning, I can give them full suites of equipment and I can research and develop effective forms of armor and weaponry.

[Mathenaut]

If I wanted to play a sci-fi pause-based-real-time-strategy game casting my mooks against overwhelming odds, I'd dust off UFO: Afterlight. At least then my mooks' skills increase at a pace that actually has meaning, I can give them full suites of equipment and I can research and develop effective forms of armor and weaponry.

This is an important point.  The scale of the raids in late-game turns this into a poor man's rts, which dominates every element of the gameplay.

[johny17202]

This is the best summary of the problem I have seen on this thread.

It unravels the core issue with RimWorld, I think. RimWorld is still in its infancy and I feel like it hasn't been decided yet what the focus of the game should be. Is it a tower defense game? An economical simulator? A survival game?

I think this is the fundamental question that needs to be answered first. If this game is supposed to be a tower defense game then there is nothing wrong with how things play out currently. If it is supposed to be more of an economical colony simulator, then the whole progression of assaults needs some serious rethinking. Etc.

I am actually thinking about setting up a poll to find out what aspects of the game people enjoy the most. It might help Tynan make the decision on what this game should be focusing on.

This right here!!!! This is what I've been thinking the entire time I've read through 13 pages of how to hurt dwarfing so outdoors will be a happier place. I don't know what Rimworld is designed for, at first i was like epic base builder with tower defense elements, then i started noticing pawns with thoughts/emotions now i'm thinking more along the lines of the Sims, but with the most tenacious bandits i've ever seen in any game period. I mean come on if you've sent over 10k of your men into a zone and only 50 or so come limping back how many more times are you going to toss meat into that grinder?

Now I'm seeing people that want auto turrets out and strong defense tactics demolished so that outdoor "castles" can feel more feasible and want it to be completely about micromanaging your 20 people to fight off the horde of bandits that for some reason can peg a colonist in the head 9/10 times with lvl 4 shooting skill. I like some of the ideas especially some of the harder to mine ideas, but you have to consider it's a sand box there is no real way to play that is incorrect. If you are in a zone that is flat with no mountain then you build on the surface, if you have a mountain then you have to work with it and turn that into your fortress.

What is Rimworld's gameplay supposed to be? I'll be honest the reason i push so hard for defense is because the game feels like a base defense game, build enough turrets to protect the squishy pawns and pray they hold so i don't lose "precious" man power to joe smoe's random lucky gun shot from an open doorway around a corner and into Bill's head putting him down for the count after he's unloaded 20 plus rounds in that corridor while behind cover in a strategically superior position.

I know right now that getting off the planet to safety is the end game goal now, but I think there is so much more potential in just allowing players to sandbox it up and build a colony out of survivors eat up the resources and then offer the ability to move on the map with your collected party.

To go back on topic though, everyone is considering how to make A(above ground base building) = B (below ground base building). The problem I see is that A can't be = to B. Here is my suggestion go with the making it harder to mine after the first few tiles in a mountain, and the cost wood to tunnel as a roof type ideas. Actually what's cool about the roof type ideas if you give the option when tunneling to use a specific type of material to reinforce your tunnels they should be more stable make this the only way to have larger rooms inside the mountains.

I would prefer to not go with the "graboid" idea because lets be honest having a random chance a monster can attack you in your safest rooms is a nightmare and would instead of making both options viable would make tunneling rooms out a terrible idea and if they're able to get you in a tunnel why would going through the man made floor of your shack be any harder to penetrate?

Just making tunnels harder to make wouldn't be enough though because outside is still so much harder to generate a safe zone where pawn loss is prevented and there aren't any benefits for just being outside. Why doesn't a person that's been in a tunnel all day get a +emotion when they go outside into the sun?

Here are the suggestions that I like a lot when it comes to this part using the buff system just buff peoples thoughts with a few simple "light breeze feels good" "being in the sun feels amazing" "I like a little spring rain". now when it's thunderstorming there should also be negatives it wouldn't be fair without them, but the negatives shouldn't be so bad that they cause a phsychotic break because someone is a little hungry and it started raining. This would require a lot of balancing. Also I'm pretty sure it's in work, but a shield generator would be amazing to stop drop in attacks on above ground colonies.

A side note on the shield generator to bring out in the open colonies more viable and to give something mountain colonies can't use make shield generators that stop drop ins have like beacons that determine the shields layout, but it has to be in a circle format with nothing but open skies on all points and be a certain distance from mountains.

I just hope it doesn't get to the point where we use the "Stick" to beat dwarfs into going outside in a sandbox where their gameplay was supposed to be there choice anyway .

[stefanstr]

I like the idea of shield generators.

You should learn to divide your text into shorter sentences, though. It was a little painful to read.

[Varnhagen]

I'm a sucker for unwieldy sentences, too. You go, pal!

I think there are a couple misconceptions in this thread. Most people argue from a "what is" PoV, while I think it'd be better to consider "what should be".
We all know, that the game is in an Alpha state, so no finished features, barely any balancing and lots of placeholders. If it is possible to spam 20 turrets into an enclosed space and the AI falling for it, the only way to ramp up the challenge beyond laughable is by increasing the numbers of attackers. Sure, the enemy numbers need to be nerfed, but the massive attacks are just a symptom of lacking gameplay, content, choice, AI and balancing. Arguing that the enemy numbers need to be reduced is thus a moot point. Thus I argued, that mountain and open colonies should differ gameplay-wise heavily.

[johny17202]

I like the idea of shield generators.

You should learn to divide your text into shorter sentences, though. It was a little painful to read.

Yeah I'm a terrible writer and i ramble half the time, but thanks for taking the time to read it though .

[Jotun]

This is the best summary of the problem I have seen on this thread.

It unravels the core issue with RimWorld, I think. RimWorld is still in its infancy and I feel like it hasn't been decided yet what the focus of the game should be. Is it a tower defense game? An economical simulator? A survival game?

I think this is the fundamental question that needs to be answered first. If this game is supposed to be a tower defense game then there is nothing wrong with how things play out currently. If it is supposed to be more of an economical colony simulator, then the whole progression of assaults needs some serious rethinking. Etc.

I am actually thinking about setting up a poll to find out what aspects of the game people enjoy the most. It might help Tynan make the decision on what this game should be focusing on.

I think it works fine as both, really. The difficulty settings allow you to pace the game as you want, if you pick an easier difficulty or a less combat focused AI, you get a more economic based game. If you pick a more combat focused AI or harder difficulty, you get more of a focus on the real time tactics aspect of the game.

That's sort of the whole point of the game, to my eyes, it does both well. There are lots of games that do one or the other, but few that do both. Making it onto one or the other would rather detract from the game's uniqueness, I think, nor do I really see a need to do it when you can already make the choice yourself when you start a colony.

[Matthiasagreen]

Has anyone who complained about the difficulty of outside colonies played them since A7? I personally was an avid builder of mountain bases because outside bases were too difficult. However, since A7, I have been able to create several successful outside colonies (without mortars or turrets). I feel that the change in how the difficulty scales has really cleared this whole issue up. Am I wrong?

[stefanstr]

Has anyone who complained about the difficulty of outside colonies played them since A7? I personally was an avid builder of mountain bases because outside bases were too difficult. However, since A7, I have been able to create several successful outside colonies (without mortars or turrets). I feel that the change in how the difficulty scales has really cleared this whole issue up. Am I wrong?

It is definitely gotten easier. What hasn't changed is that mountain colonies are objectively cheaper to build.

[EarthyTurtle]

Has anyone who complained about the difficulty of outside colonies played them since A7? I personally was an avid builder of mountain bases because outside bases were too difficult. However, since A7, I have been able to create several successful outside colonies (without mortars or turrets). I feel that the change in how the difficulty scales has really cleared this whole issue up. Am I wrong?

Actually I just got nailed 2 hours ago xD. Mind you it wasn't really due to the A.I getting too strong, more so the A.I got incredibly lucky. I had 5 colonists versus 5 besiegers, 3 of theirs were equip with M-24's and they managed to score some incredibly lucky shots. I lost 3 colonists to 1 hit torso shots and 1 had his leg arm and jaw blown off. I did successfully drive them off in the end, So that was all good. I believe the A.I did get a bit easier in terms of numbers which is good.

It was more that the A.I didn't let up. Now with 3 (the other came from a slaver for those wondering where the math is) colonists, 1 that is an empath the A.I sends a good 5 raiders to kill what remains. With only 2 viable fighters verses 5 raiders one which is already decked out in power armour, helmet and M-24, I feel a bit overwhelmed by it.

I mean it is more than plausible that I just need practise, but personally I would like it if the A.I takes it a tiny bit easier on me when it's just delt me a hard blow.

[Mathenaut]

I've done some outside colonies in jungle.

I trend to tech quick to stonecutting and wall off my colony.  Not a world of difference vs dwarving, save for the overhead vulnerability.

[ShadowDragon8685]

You want to know what would bring me out into the open?

Defenses.

Defenses that work. Moats that bandits can't cross without something ridiculous like actually building a bridge. Turrets and/or pre-prepared manned firing positions that are so deadly that only morons would charge into them. Remember WWI trench warfare? Remember why everybody trenched up? It's because going over the line was suicide, because machine gun fire mows down massed infantry like a combine harvester mows down wheat. Anti-aircraft guns that can shoot down drop pods entirely, heavy energy blasters that shoot explosions that can wreck heavy enemies and get heavy splash damage on massed infantry. Bring back my freaking minefields.

If I don't feel safe coming out, nothing's going to make me come out; that is, if I don't feel that outside attacks are a manageable thing without going into pause-based real-time strategy, I'm not coming out. No amount of undermountain stick will get me out, but if you apply  so much as to make an undermountain base impossible whilst leaving me feel that an undersky base is impossible, I just won't play - I will, however, slag the game off to all and sundry who will listen, because I will feel cheated.

[Arcfault]

I feel that there are many who share my opinion on play styles. I agree with pretty much everything that Johny17202 posted (which I feel was a fine post BTW). I love Dwarving and the fact that the Rimworld site states that Dwarf Fortress was one of its many inspirations. The promo videos occasionally show Dwarving styles in addition to open colonies.

I do feel compelled to point out, that I believed that the point of Rimworld was to create a thriving colony, not a military outpost or base. I'm fine with pirate assaults occasionally, but I really want diplomacy and trade to be a viable play style as well. Let me negotiate and trade with the visitors that come through. Let me communicate with the pirates and negotiate a cease-fire. Let me dwarf if I want to and honestly, if I crashed on a planet with two other people, I'd immediately look for a cave to hunker down in. I wouldn't say, hey let's set up camp out in the middle here without knowing what predators or the weather may be.

Like others have said, this is a wonderful sandbox with a ton of opportunities in front of it. Let the players play as they enjoy. If I want combat, let it happen. If I want to play peaceful, let me have the option to try and broker peace. Maybe I want a mix. Don't put in monsters whose sole purpose is to drive players out of the mountains. My play style isn't really into RTSs, and the last update did make it more manageable with the changes to the assaults, but it can still get ridiculous near the end.

Just my two cents. I still love Rimworld and look forward to where this game is going.