Limit Solar Flares? (Bad Interaction Between Hydroponics & Devilstrand)

[Gargrant]

The emergent behavior is like a bug, but technically there is no flaw in each primitive.

Primitive A: Devilstrand takes 20+ days to grow in a Hydroponics tub (note that Hydroponics double typical growth rates, I think)
Primitive B: Hydroponics Tub require consistent electrical power or else the plants shortly die
Primitive C: Solar Flares, which knock out all electronics, are common (at least on the "builder" level difficulties I've been experimenting with), usually 1x or so a week

Emergent Outcome: You cannot grow Devilstrand in Hydroponics Tubs, the only safe way is the traditional way, in the ground.  Thus, you wait for 45 days of growth to harvest your first crop of Devilstrand. (45 days of growth appears to be 90ish actual game days, because even with Sun Lamps, plants don't grow at night.)

This may be entirely intended, since Devilstrand is a magic wonder cloth.  But it suggests several things to me, if Hydroponics are actually meant to be useful for cash crops:
a) Loss of electricity to Hydroponics reduces the growth rate merely to "normal" ground while there is no electricity, rather than killing the entire crop - this would make the Solar Flare a bearable annoyance
b) Add research in "hardening" technologies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_hardening).  For extra cost, allow any arbitrary device to be "hardened" after the research is completed.  Thus, one could build hardened power conduits, generators, hydroponics tubs, or doors, or (maybe more attractively to some) turrets.  This would add cost but allow one to invest in secure cash crop development.
c) Cut the number of solar flares on some difficulty levels, this is the simplest but least satisfying fix

[Damien Hart]

This is intentional, I think as a measure to balance out the high growth rates of hydro-basins by giving them potential for failure.

[Gargrant]

I don't disagree with that, and for standard crops, it really is just an annoyance and merely provides some irregularity in the food supply.  I'm suggesting that one of the effects of adding new materials and crops has had an unintended side-effect.  Functionally, I can set Devilstrand to grow in a Hydroponic Tub, but I will never realize a crop of Devilstrand from that tub.  The option may as well not exist and merely wastes time and resources.

Further, when I'm purposely digging myself deep into a mountain, like some sort of Space Western version of the Cheyenne Mountain Base, it's frustrating that I can't protect my food generation capabilities beyond vast stockpiles.

[Damien Hart]

If it were so easy to produce food, without any risk to supply, the system may as well not exist. You should never be able to remove a risk entirely; maybe something along the lines of a research to increases the time a hydro crop can be without power before dying would be better - that way, a solar flare isn't a guaranteed crop loss, but it's still a possibility.

[Gargrant]

I understand your point Damien.  I'm not suggesting removing uncertainty from the Hydroponics and food systems, I'm suggesting that one random event is having a disporpotionate effect on the new material system.  Other random events already impact the food supply (plant plagues, for example).  I spend most of my time worrying (and by worrying, I mean managing production) on the topic of food in my Builder difficulty builds.  I think that's ok.

Is there any direct objection to a hardening research tree?  Hardened laptops are actively deployed today.  They are 3x or 4x as expensive, and are usually a bit slower than a non-hardened counterpart.  They are also a much less vulnerable to EMP blasts (which could be another game benefit).  More finicky electronics are harder to harden.

You have to harden both the power-supply (ie, the Battery) and the technology that is using the energy (the Hydroponics tub/Door/whatever).

If you charged a battery, then configured the power grid (via the current system, you'd need to cut the connection to that battery) so that it is providing a backup energy reserve for the hydroponics tub in question, then someone sufficiently interested in raising a cash crop via Hydroponics could do so, but I doubt that it would be a standard solution.

This, again, is only a "problem" because of the amount of time it requires for the Devilstrand to develop.  Cotton, 1 Day - Berries, 1 Day - Potatoes, 1 Day - Devilstrand - 20 Days.

Maybe making Devilstrand slightly less fragile when in a hydroponics tub would solve the issue?  Retard the growth a bit?  Most plants that require a long-time to develop are also reasonably robust.

(My current solution is to grow it in the ground, and that's ok, but it's hours of game-play even at Warp 3 to go through 90 game days.)

[Damien Hart]

I guess shielding would be a hardening technique that could be viable, if it required a very rare, expensive material to create shielded objects. It definitely shouldn't be able to completely negate the effect though, just make things resistant; maybe give each flare a hidden severity value, with flares above a certain severity affecting hardened items too.

I don't know if solar flares are disproportionately affecting production. Maybe you should try planting some backup fields outside your underground base. You aren't supposed to be able to turtle completely.

[Mathenaut]

If it were so easy to produce food, without any risk to supply, the system may as well not exist. You should never be able to remove a risk entirely..

We already have that.  With a food stockpile, nothing shy of the perfect storm of RNG could remotely threaten your supply.

Preparation mitigates risk.  That is the point of preparing.  If there is no weight to risk, then it's not risk, it's just arbitrary failure.  That isn't balance, that isn't 'realistic', nor does it make for good gameplay.

[Damien Hart]

We already have that.  With a food stockpile, nothing shy of the perfect storm of RNG could remotely threaten your supply.

Preparation mitigates risk.  That is the point of preparing.  If there is no weight to risk, then it's not risk, it's just arbitrary failure.  That isn't balance, that isn't 'realistic', nor does it make for good gameplay.

Mitigates, not eliminates. No matter how well stocked you are, a few well-timed events from the story teller can leave you hurting; the better prepared you are, the more likely a favourable outcome will be.

If you can completely protect yourself from events, then they are rendered redundant. It would be like having armour with 100% protection, which would make combat completely irrelevant.

Plus, I doubt that eternal food stocks will be a thing forever; they make it far too easy to stock up a year's supply and forget about production altogether.

[Mathenaut]

Add food preservation and you can do that, yeah.  Welcome to agriculture.

It's like saying there should be a % chance that people still get rained on indoors.  Or that shooting through walls should be a thing because blocking line of sight shouldn't give 100% protection from bullets.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Add food preservation and you can do that, yeah.  Welcome to agriculture.

It's like saying there should be a % chance that people still get rained on indoors.  Or that shooting through walls should be a thing because blocking line of sight shouldn't give 100% protection from bullets.

I hate to say it, but roofs do leak, and most walls/doors/furniture are concealment, not cover.

Now that I've played devil's advocate, yeah. Solar flares are just redonkulous in this game.

[Mathenaut]

Now that I've played devil's advocate, yeah. Solar flares are just redonkulous in this game.

Rimworld structures aren't built with paper-thin and hollow walls, though.  Roofs only leak when they are damaged or built improperly.

Not to mention, solar flares shouldn't really be hitting structures that are deep underground anyways.

Nor does shielding really require 'rare and expensive' materials.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Now that I've played devil's advocate, yeah. Solar flares are just redonkulous in this game.

Rimworld structures aren't built with paper-thin and hollow walls, though.  Roofs only leak when they are damaged or built improperly.

Not to mention, solar flares shouldn't really be hitting structures that are deep underground anyways.

Nor does shielding really require 'rare and expensive' materials.

No, it really doesn't. You want to shield something? Put the sumbitch in a faraday cage. Nothing electrical is getting to it.

Of course, it's not going to be able to meaningfully interact with stuff outside, either. But that can be okay, if you say "fuck it" and build your entire home as a faraday cage.

[Mathenaut]

Hydroponics don't need to interact with anything outside, so that'll work perfectly.  Using lead layers also works, as solar flare radiation isn't THAT powerful.

[Coenmcj]

It depends if these solar flares are limited to what we know as "flares" or if they are Coronal Mass Ejections, in which they can damage and even destroy electronics/cabling.

[Damien Hart]

If it were so easy as digging up lead deposits and adding them to every electronic item in your base, solar flares would be nothing more than two words of text in the bottom right corner of the screen. If they have no effect on gameplay, they may as well just be removed then. What's next, being able to vaccinate colonists upon arrival, so that they are permanently immune to all diseases? Mental conditioning so that no one ever has a mental break again?

Otherwise, the ability to protect electronics needs to be limited, hence the suggestion of rare and/or expensive materials. If you have a better idea on effective limitations, I'm all ears.

On a side note:

Rimworld structures aren't built with paper-thin and hollow walls, though.

A metal wall costs 6 metal to build, and occupies a full cell of space. When you mine it, you receive 35 metal from the same volume of space, not including whatever unusable materials may be present. Looks like the walls might actually be thin and hollow.