Tynan, don't let the community get you bogged down in tweaking!

Peng Qi · November 09, 2013, 09:13:25 PM

When I saw that a patch was being rolled out to adjust difficulty levels, I must admit it made me a little worried; not because the change or goal of the change wasn't good, but because this kind of change strikes me as a beta or even post-beta level change. I'm not sure how much time it takes to tweak these things; hopefully not very much, but I still think it's important for a game developer in an alpha stage to be focused on two things:

1. Stability and code refactoring.
2. Fielding and testing new core game elements, or implementing planned changes to current game elements.

I admire Tynan's attentiveness to his fans here very much, but if he allows himself to be distracted and side-tracked by balance tweaks the community calls for this early in development, I'm worried that it will massively delay the final product; after all, the community will always always always have suggestions no matter how "finished" a game is.

So yeah, that's my attempt at constructive criticism. I really like the game and am looking forward to seeing it grow and succeed!

riot186 · November 09, 2013, 09:56:07 PM

yea ive seen a lot of threads about people wanting balancing.. The game is in ALPHA your balances will come later...

SharpKris · November 09, 2013, 09:56:47 PM

+1

we dont mind the balance! if anything we enjoy the challenge!

todofwar · November 09, 2013, 10:28:52 PM

Agree whole heartedly, I fully appreciate this is pre-alpha and there are bound to be problems. It's a great game as is, hell probably better than most games I've played in recent years. I say work on implementing the new game elements you've talked about and leave balancing for later.

thestalkinghead · November 09, 2013, 10:41:48 PM

i agree, new features will always be more interesting and adding them will just unbalance things again anyway, but maybe Tynan wants something more balanced and stable for when it goes public in january, either way i am looking forward to more updates in the future

Teiwaz · November 09, 2013, 11:04:45 PM

While it's true that this isn't a great point in development to be "tweaking," more open testing revealed some pretty fundamental problems that meant the game wasn't playing as it was supposed to. Rimworld isn't supposed to be tower defense, but that's how it has been playing due to the effectiveness of turrets, the ineffectiveness of sandbags, and the frequency of raider attacks. Defense is currently the, by far and away, dominant consideration when planning a base. Trying to address that issue isn't a matter of "tweaking," it's a pretty fundamental design issue. Being aware of it - and whether or not it *is* just an issue of difficulty, or is tied to more fundamental problems - will shape how development proceeds, and so it worth addressing early.

Peng Qi · November 10, 2013, 04:04:57 PM

Quote from: Teiwaz on November 09, 2013, 11:04:45 PM
While it's true that this isn't a great point in development to be "tweaking," more open testing revealed some pretty fundamental problems that meant the game wasn't playing as it was supposed to. Rimworld isn't supposed to be tower defense, but that's how it has been playing due to the effectiveness of turrets, the ineffectiveness of sandbags, and the frequency of raider attacks. Defense is currently the, by far and away, dominant consideration when planning a base. Trying to address that issue isn't a matter of "tweaking," it's a pretty fundamental design issue. Being aware of it - and whether or not it *is* just an issue of difficulty, or is tied to more fundamental problems - will shape how development proceeds, and so it worth addressing early.

Wouldn't you think, though, that the best way to move away from a tower defense-like game would be to add obstacles that aren't enemies that charge your base? Not to tweak the number and manner in which they charge?

Galileus · November 10, 2013, 04:24:41 PM

Your logic is flawed.

If balance is off and difficulty is off, people won't play, there will be less feedback and less interest in the game. Considering how long it takes to tweak these things, it's seriously worth the time.

There is also other side to the coin. This is not a hobby gardening problem, there are real moneyz involved and that makes it a little more tricky. Tynan can't just lock himself throwing "ALPHA! ALPHA!" around - he would loose all credibility and interest. If there is a flaw that is easily repaired that stops people from fully enjoying the game as it is - in alpha - then these issues need to be addressed.

Also, this is hypocrisy on the highest level

Don't listen to community! Don't try to decide yourself what is worthwhile! Listen to MEEEE! Sorry, but the sad truth is - if Tynan is willing to listen to community to a degree, he will. If he want to address a problem, he will. If he wants to ask for opinions - he will. If he doesn't - he won't. It's only up to him to decide where and how much he can bend.

Telling him how and when listen to community on the other hand...

Tynan · November 10, 2013, 04:29:50 PM

Well, I wanted to make some basic changes to get the game to a solid playable state for the majority of players. Since it seems to be there now, my hope is that I can leave it for a while and do some more large-scale dev work.

I think it was okay to spend a week after release smoothing out new issues before I dove back into heavy development. Don't worry, I won't get stuck working on trivialities. Task prioritization (e.g. strategically not doing things that seem like good ideas on the surface) is a speciality of mine

I won't be doing detail tweaks too much right now because they'll all get wiped out by big changes later anyway. But I wanted to get the game to a pretty good state, because thousands of people are playing it and paying for it.

Regarding the state of RimWorld at the moment: The game is very tower-defensey as it stands, and runs out of content after a while. but I consider it a great success that people are even noticing these issues, because they don't appear until after hours and hours of play. It means people really like the game enough to get that deep into it, and I consider the pre-alpha a huge success because of how well it has done in this regard. It's not a finished game and I never intended it to be. But it'll be a great platform to develop from in the future. And the feedback (whether intentional as feedback or simply observed outcomes) from the community is really useful in determining what to work on next.

Peng Qi · November 10, 2013, 05:37:52 PM

Yeah, I do think the game is really great even as-is and can't wait to see what it becomes, and I didn't mean to say that the community shouldn't make suggestions!

Anyway keep it up!

Produno · November 10, 2013, 06:15:12 PM

I think its good to take this approach, especially when you consider what Tynan has now is the foundations, its makes things so much easier down the line. In engineering we call it good housekeeping or clean as you go and this concept can be applied to almost anything

.

Galileus · November 10, 2013, 06:31:28 PM

Quote from: Tynan on November 10, 2013, 04:29:50 PMIt means people really like the game enough to get that deep into it, and I consider the pre-alpha a huge success because of how well it has done in this regard.

People already started playthroughs with handicaps of no turrets, no funnelling and no pancake bunkers. THIS is telling everything about this game anyone needs to know.

Grimreaper1704 · November 10, 2013, 06:44:04 PM

I know this post will be coming. There are some Peoples out there, they think they have buy a full game and now start open hate and flame thread -.-

I have Backed for the Idea and i think im not the only one. And i know its a pre alpha and damn i got alot of very funny times in game i love it i have spend many hour to learn the basics and have alot of laughts how the raiders sometimes work

but again i know its a pre-alpha and i know also think can be changed.

The Real Backers out there that they know it is an Alpha, they are the ones they Help and they play it and report bugs to help to get the Game become a great game. And i Honored the Developer they work so hard with us the community together. We are the ones they can help to make a better game. So Please guys out there let us do it in a Constructiv Way not a destructiv way.

For all the oney they dont know what Pre-Alpha means here a good Lesson to read

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pre-alpha_version

The Other way is try out the prototypes they are very good ideas too and i play some of them a long time (I love the Tactical Prototype^^)

Produno · November 10, 2013, 10:01:01 PM

The tactical prototype is pretty cool. Definitely FTL inspired

. But better in my opinion. Might be the way the game plays im not sure.

ShootyFace · November 10, 2013, 10:55:05 PM

Quote from: Galileus on November 10, 2013, 06:31:28 PM
Quote from: Tynan on November 10, 2013, 04:29:50 PMIt means people really like the game enough to get that deep into it, and I consider the pre-alpha a huge success because of how well it has done in this regard.

People already started playthroughs with handicaps of no turrets, no funnelling and no pancake bunkers. THIS is telling everything about this game anyone needs to know.

No turrets and going into the mountains for mining only on Cassandra is hardcore. While I have reloaded games a few times starting out, I'm at the point now that if I start a base and it all goes to hell, then that's that. Story told.

I've already had so many laugh out loud and totally disturbing moments with RimWorld. If the modules all make it into the game, we are gonna be some happy campers. I want to see the social aspects and the research tree grow, and hopefully get some new enemies/situations to encounter. Already kind of miss digging around and accidentally unleashing monsters from the underworld like in DF and Gnomoria.