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RimWorld => Releases => Mods => Outdated => Topic started by: Minus on October 17, 2014, 11:18:24 AM

Title: [MOD] (Alpha 10) Medical surgery XP balance
Post by: Minus on October 17, 2014, 11:18:24 AM
Retweaked my Medical XP mod a tad. This version gives 60% more XP than it used to. However, this amount is 90% LESS than the vanilla XP rate. I have NO IDEA what Tynan was doing when he made surgery so broken, but I presume he just missed out a decimal point.

But whatever the reasons, I'm offering up the choice now to lower it a bit. This is the same file used in my Extended Surgery and Bionics (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=7029.0) mod. To give you the proper numbers they're like this:

Old Medical XP mod.           1XP a second
Vanilla Alpha 10.               16XP a second
Current Medical XP mod.     1.6XP a second

[attachment deleted by admin: too old]
Title: Re: [MOD] (Alpha 7) Medical surgery XP gain
Post by: Tsilliev on October 17, 2014, 11:20:46 AM
Good idea, I will try it,ty.

edit: I guess I have to start new game so it takes effect or?
Title: Re: [MOD] (Alpha 7) Medical surgery XP gain
Post by: Clibanarius on October 17, 2014, 11:54:51 AM
I greatly appreciate the mods you've put together, Minus, thanks for posting 'em for the rest of us to use!
Title: Re: [MOD] (Alpha 7) Medical surgery XP gain
Post by: old_sinh on October 17, 2014, 12:32:30 PM
It's was here https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=6679.0 .... What's new?
Title: Re: [MOD] (Alpha 7) Medical surgery XP gain
Post by: Clibanarius on October 17, 2014, 01:29:07 PM
Anyone understand what you are even trying to say?
Title: Re: [MOD] (Alpha 7) Medical surgery XP gain
Post by: Matthiasagreen on October 17, 2014, 01:32:43 PM
He was wondering if anyone was aware that this mod already exists within the other mod he mentioned.
Title: Re: [MOD] (Alpha 7) Medical surgery XP gain
Post by: Clibanarius on October 17, 2014, 01:50:22 PM
That seems to fit the context, thanks. It's sometimes hard when none of the words seem to actually fit together in that way. Oy.
Title: Re: [MOD] (Alpha 7) Medical surgery XP gain
Post by: DracoGriffin on October 17, 2014, 03:05:39 PM
Back on topic...

Thanks for the mod; didn't feel like adding all the extraneous things of the other mod or reliance on third mods.

Needed a mod like this that is simple and gets the job done! Thanks Minus!
Title: Re: [MOD] (Alpha 7) Medical surgery XP gain
Post by: Minus on October 18, 2014, 08:44:50 AM
Good idea, I will try it,ty.

edit: I guess I have to start new game so it takes effect or?
I tested it on a saved game and it worked right away!

It's was here https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=6679.0 .... What's new?
I prefer mods that do specific things like this to be their own mods. Not everyone wants those other bits, or they may already have a bionics mod that wont work together with that one. Still, thanks for bringing it to my attention.

Also I really appreciate the thanks you guys are giving me. Doesn't feel all that deserved when I'm making such tiny mods though. Hopefully I'll make a real mod that deserves praise.
Title: Re: [MOD] (Alpha 7) Medical surgery XP gain
Post by: Matthiasagreen on October 20, 2014, 11:37:29 AM
Also I really appreciate the thanks you guys are giving me. Doesn't feel all that deserved when I'm making such tiny mods though. Hopefully I'll make a real mod that deserves praise.

I am personally a fan of small, a la carte mods over big game changing mods. I am definitely with you that not everyone wants the other things you put into it. I wish all mods were like this.
Title: Re: [MOD] (Alpha 7) Medical surgery XP gain
Post by: Sion on November 11, 2014, 12:04:39 PM
Can you make the colonists earn Operation XP from butchering animals (lower amount) and humans (higher amount)?

I'm thinking something like:
Butcher animal: 50-100 XP (animals aren't so similar to humans, therefore lower XP)
Heal a person: 150 XP (already in mod)
Butcher human: 200-300 XP (because that's like an autopsy, witch really lets the doc figure out how the stuff inside is supposed to be put together)
Title: Re: [MOD] (Alpha 7) Medical surgery XP gain
Post by: JuliaEllie on November 11, 2014, 12:16:45 PM
Please refrain from poking the dead mods. Let them rest in peace and dignity.
Title: Re: [MOD] (Alpha 7) Medical surgery XP gain
Post by: skullywag on November 11, 2014, 12:24:48 PM
Dead? This isnt dead, it does 1 thing and does it well. I use it all the time. The request was a good one i thought. You in the right thread JEllie? :D
Title: Re: [MOD] (Alpha 7) Medical surgery XP gain
Post by: JuliaEllie on November 11, 2014, 12:32:06 PM
Its now part of Extended Surgery (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=7029.0) and wont be updated anymore. So technically this mod is dead.
Title: Re: [MOD] (Alpha 7) Medical surgery XP gain
Post by: Matthiasagreen on November 11, 2014, 12:35:07 PM
I prefer mods that do specific things like this to be their own mods. Not everyone wants those other bits, or they may already have a bionics mod that wont work together with that one. Still, thanks for bringing it to my attention.

Doesn't seem like it wouldn't be updated.
Title: Re: [MOD] (Alpha 7) Medical surgery XP gain
Post by: skullywag on November 11, 2014, 12:38:29 PM
Well if this isnt fixed in Alpha8 (is it?) and i dont use extended surgery.....
Title: Re: [MOD] (Alpha 7) Medical surgery XP gain
Post by: JuliaEllie on November 11, 2014, 12:52:07 PM

<SNIP!>
Changelog 1.4
  • Merged the More Bionic Parts! mod with this one.
  • Also merged the Medical XP gain mod with this.
  • Fixed bionic arm upgrade's 11 arm cost.
  • Fixed bionic jaw's description
  • Gave the hook hand a damage boost.
  • Added pretty crystal eyes which improve socialising
  • Added motorized tracks to make some really fast colonists.
  • Added bionic shoulders. They sadly replace bionic arms.
<SNIP!>

But maybe we should just ask Minus :D
Title: Re: [MOD] (Alpha 7) Medical surgery XP gain
Post by: skullywag on November 11, 2014, 12:54:35 PM
I know he merged it. But you can keep a mod seperate without issue (and without it being dead) especially one as small as this. If he doesnt keep it up to date i will until such time that its in core.
Title: Re: [MOD] (Alpha 7) Medical surgery XP gain
Post by: Minus on November 13, 2014, 10:04:09 PM
Butcher human: 200-300 XP (because that's like an autopsy, witch really lets the doc figure out how the stuff inside is supposed to be put together)
...I'm sorry but butchering someone is NOT like an autopsy! If I went and butchered someone I'd not really learn anything new, I'd just have a lot of fun. Actual medical operations are about making the smallest incision possible, literally the OPPOSITE of butchering!

But thanks for the suggestion anyway.

Its now part of Extended Surgery (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=7029.0) and wont be updated anymore. So technically this mod is dead.
Whoa-ho there! This mod is not dead! It's just... I don't see any ways right now of improving it. This mod will remain it's own thing for those that want to keep playing Vanilla, but are bothered by the lack of medical XP you can get. It's more a fix really, whilst Extended Surgery is an actual mod. It'll die once Tynan puts XP into the vanilla game.
Title: Re: [MOD] (Alpha 7) Medical surgery XP gain
Post by: Cat123 on November 13, 2014, 10:19:22 PM
I'm sorry but butchering someone is NOT like an autopsy!

Sorry, but you're wrong.

Butchers have to have rather specific knowledge of muscles, ligaments and the differences between fats, connective tissue and flesh. If there's one thing alone that preaches this: sirloin is worth about ten times offal: you learn to cut well, or you fail.

And Surgeons?

Every. Single. Doctor. Who. Is. A. Quality. Surgeon. Cut. Up. Dead. Animals. And. Then. Human. Cadavers. Not. In. 1814*. In. 1914. And. In. 2014.


They learnt their knife skills from butchers - I suggest you read a little history. The battlefield is sadly a place of learning, and butchers had a skill to teach; especially when it came to amputations.


So, please: if you've never cut up a corpse, don't be a prudish muppet about it. After the consciousness leaves [spirit / anima / soul, whatever], you're a slab of meat and surgeons will train on you. Pro-tip: in the best medical schools / universities, it's often [off the record] suggested that you intern for a butcher in your summer holidays for the first two years...


*I suggest you learn about the struggle the medical profession went through to actually look inside a corpse: The Sistine Chapel is rather instructive about it, after all.... that's the human brain God is reaching from.
Title: Re: [MOD] (Alpha 7) Medical surgery XP gain
Post by: StorymasterQ on November 13, 2014, 11:05:52 PM
If I went and butchered someone I'd not really learn anything new, I'd just have a lot of fun.

I need add this sentence to my oft-quoted quote here (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=7075.msg70471#msg70471)
Title: Re: [MOD] (Alpha 7) Medical surgery XP gain
Post by: Minus on November 14, 2014, 03:30:47 AM
*Big load of facts*
My entire response was stupid because I for some reason thought "butchering" was not the professional term, and that it meant hacking at a body until meat comes out. Doesn't help that it kinda looks that way in the game too. But given that I did cooking in college, this is just embarassing...

Thankyou for the history lesson, you are totally right. Damnit, wish I'd read this before I updated Extended Surgery and Bionics! Just added some new stuff that uses human meat as well!

HOWEVER! Just for balance reasons, I think adding this would make butchering too good a thing. The same logic could be used to have butchering increase melee skill or vice versa. It just feels off having it improve cooking AND medicine, even if the two are closely connected IRL. Similarily the medicine crafting in Apothacarius ignores cooking, even though it is literally mixing 3 herbs together in a bowl. I will keep an open mind and you are free to try to change it. But logic and balance are enemies here, the last thing I want is to make it easy to level up quickly.
Title: Re: [MOD] (Alpha 7) Medical surgery XP gain
Post by: Sion on November 15, 2014, 06:16:02 PM
You could always lower the amount of XP from butchering.

It would be more humane than capture a crappy raider, haul him to a cell, set the prisoner-settings to receive treatment but not medicine (because those are expensive), draft a colonist and finally shoot the raider a couple of times, then let the doctor fix him up, and shoot him some more...

Yeah, RimWorld have a REALLY SPECIAL kind of dark "humor".
Title: Re: [MOD] (Alpha 9) Medical surgery XP gain
Post by: Minus on February 24, 2015, 02:07:28 PM
This was the first bit of my Extended Surgery mod I updated to Alpha 9. As the rest is gonna take longer to convert over, thought I'd at least upload what I've done so far.
Still shocked surgery gives no XP in Vanilla.

This version gives about half as much XP as it used to due to the gradual way XP is gained now.
Title: Re: [MOD] (Alpha 7) Medical surgery XP gain
Post by: Mathenaut on March 05, 2015, 09:33:45 PM
You could always lower the amount of XP from butchering.

It would be more humane than capture a crappy raider, haul him to a cell, set the prisoner-settings to receive treatment but not medicine (because those are expensive), draft a colonist and finally shoot the raider a couple of times, then let the doctor fix him up, and shoot him some more...

Yeah, RimWorld have a REALLY SPECIAL kind of dark "humor".

As was stated, logic and balance are 'enemies' of a sort.

There is this odd way of thinking that making things convoluted or needlessly complex adds to depth. Even worse, a sense that these things somehow mirror 'realism'. This makes realism something counter-intuitive and makes realistic solutions seem 'cheap'.

Is it dark to experiment on unwilling captives in order to learn nuances of medicine and anatomy? It is, and that's pretty much exactly what happened. It's in hindsight that these things can be learned by proxy of more humane means, but that first knowledge? It's not a coincidence that surgery and butchery share those parallels.

All that aside, it does make a sort of sense that butchery doesn't progress medicine because you aren't really making the same cuts toward the same ends. Many of the basics are the same, so it's good for early learning, but to really progress your skill you'd need to use bodies.

So really, just let us butcher corpses for medical xp instead of cooking xp. Can even require it to be done on the medical bed and make it a time sink.
Title: Re: [MOD] (Alpha 7) Medical surgery XP gain
Post by: lusername on March 07, 2015, 06:46:13 AM
Is it dark to experiment on unwilling captives in order to learn nuances of medicine and anatomy? It is, and that's pretty much exactly what happened.
Don't worry, if you learn anything useful and turn over all your data, you'll avoid prosecution for war crimes.
Title: Re: [MOD] (Alpha 10) Medical surgery XP balance
Post by: Minus on May 03, 2015, 01:58:11 AM
Updated to Alpha 10. Probably redundant.
Title: Re: [MOD] (Alpha 10) Medical surgery XP balance
Post by: Ninefinger on May 03, 2015, 02:33:45 AM
Updated to Alpha 10. Probably redundant.

Thanks for posting this, or i never would have caught that, i went ahead and updated Expanded Prosthetics & Organ Engineering for my Ultimate Overhaul Modpack. Should probably let other surgery modders know to adjust there values accordingly. But im sure they will see this post as i have. Thanks again, oh and you should probably post that this mod will not be entirely necessary so long as those mods are updated directly. Cheers!