Melee combat - diagnosing the problems

[SpaceDorf]

He had worked there for about 8 years when it happened. They usually had someone lose a limb or have another extreme injury at least once a year. (He worked for Exon making wire twine for hay bales and other shipping.) The person before him had her entire arm taken off by one of the baling machines.

He's 56 now and this happened 14 years ago. He had years of rehab and work to gain back manipulation. Now he can work almost like he has his whole hand and still has an engineering job, just with a different company and industry.

Thanks for answering, you are right, a Rimworld is a highly dangerous location,
and accidents happen quite often there .. but as you also described .. there are ways and methods to counter that. And I don't think all of them are based on modern medicine ..

But we are not discussing the pros and cons of losing limbs but what the problems are with melee.

Maybe we're not really addressing melee so much as we are voicing frustration with the insanely stupid thing pawns do, completely oblivious to localized conditions.

Yes we are voicing our frustration with melee combat .. because, like medicine there are just some things that don't work and are no fun.

And the insanely stupid thing you describe is actually a player fault when you let your insanely stupid pawns walk into those situations.

And the accusation, that melee is no fun is pretty hard in this context.
Because the boring things you compared it too still yield results that help you.
Melee yields only helping results if you like losing your pawns
instead of the asskicking you would expect from a highly equipped and trained space marine.

[b0rsuk]

Note that most of my charges against melee combat apply to short-ranged weapons as well. That's why there are no short-ranged killboxes and no colonies specializing in heavy SMG and shotguns. I would go so far as to say short ranged weapons are not even getting properly tested, because people just avoid them if they can.

I think it's a flaw in the damage system, and melee combat only highlights it best.

So my solution: Increase hit point of limbs.

That could work.

Sewing in fingers, toes and hands could be allowed. This doesn't necessarily mean all permanent damage would be avoided. Imagine 3 people lost fingers in a raid and you must act QUICKLY to heal them. You only have one doctor, who will get treated first ? "But OMG STORY is only made if there is permanent damage!" - what about a raccoon snatching a lost finger and disappearing on the horizon ? Hell, even your colony DOGS or bears could eat them, or chickens, especially if they're not trained in obedience. Finally, limbs  could have a short time limit to be sewn in - suddenly you would find yourself wanting many doctors.
What a deficit of imagination.

Another thing is that pawns fight in an unrealistic way. Animals avoid taking damage into their sensitive parts, like eyes. A squirrel would have to be pretty damn good to bite a wolf's eye out. If nothing else, a wolf about to attack narrows its eyes, to protect them. And when hurt, an animal or human keeps the wounded part away from hurt as much as possible. If your left hand is hurt, you turn your right side to the enemy, and so on.

But not in Rimworld. There are dice being thrown and a wounded part or eye is as likely getting hurt as any other part.

Increase pain each wound cause so pawns that attacked drops down quicker, instead of fighting to death. This also increase survival rate of colonist since they'll just drop and no longer aggro attack.

This would beg the question why are enemies not finishing the wounded, especially when there's no threat in sight.

I think this will be solved if priority AI is fixed. If your personal shielder is behind a cover raiders will search for difference target as there is no merit for shooting at a target with no threat and no way to breaking the shield. If 10 personal shield soldiers start charge raiders will distribute their fires in an attempt to prevent overkill.

Looking at how game-y and arbitrary Rimworld is in certain aspect, maybe Tynan thinks having 'tanks' and 'damage dealers' is a good thing ??

I think you (OP) are looking at the scenario wrong. You're trying to compare balance between things that were never meant to be balanced. RimWorld is not a game with balanced sub-systems. It's all about understanding the imbalances and trying to come up with a risk mitigation strategy to increase the odds of survival. So from that perspective, nothing has to be balanced against each other, it must simply have a purpose (and that purpose does not have to provide a benefit, it could be a penalty, or a mix).

And I think you missed my point 0, which is right smack on the start of the article, and is numbered '0' for a reason.

And the insanely stupid thing you describe is actually a player fault when you let your insanely stupid pawns walk into those situations.

Really ? Undrafted colonists not going into 'cowering' mode when they hear a gunshot within 1km range ? We already have the switch to make colonists flee/attack/ignore, people who want clueless colonists can use the 'ignoring' setting.

[GiantSpaceHamster]

I think you (OP) are looking at the scenario wrong. You're trying to compare balance between things that were never meant to be balanced. RimWorld is not a game with balanced sub-systems. It's all about understanding the imbalances and trying to come up with a risk mitigation strategy to increase the odds of survival. So from that perspective, nothing has to be balanced against each other, it must simply have a purpose (and that purpose does not have to provide a benefit, it could be a penalty, or a mix).

And I think you missed my point 0, which is right smack on the start of the article, and is numbered '0' for a reason.

I did not miss that. It is subjective and I disagree. I usually want about 20% of my colonists to be melee.

[b0rsuk]

What for ?

[GiantSpaceHamster]

1) To use shields and stand in front of my ranged attackers. This applies even when I have walls for cover if I don't have sandbags on the side I want to fire around. When a lot of attackers are coming this means they'll get to my melee guy first so my shooter can continue firing over him easily.
2) Melee attackers are extremely useful against snipers and enemies with indirect fire (grenades, incendiary launchers, etc). Hide around a corner and let them approach and then jump them. A pawn with a melee weapon and a decent skill will make short work of a pawn with no melee weapon, generally without taking much damage, and the damage will generally just be bruising rather than cuts.

Those are the major uses. I don't always bother with a killbox so having the melee pawns with shields as a line in front of my shooters is often useful. I prefer walls and cover of course, but sometimes the situation is too fluid to rely on my static defense configuration.

[b0rsuk]

The AI is utterly incapable of dealing with door abuse / whack-a-mole tactic. Doors are de facto embrasures.

[Boston]

A significant part of the problem with melee is that there is no defensive complexity.  I have a spear. You have a knife.  With equally skilled opponents this should be a non-contest -- I keep poking you and hold you at a safe distance until you bleed out. But now if you have a shield things change; you can block with the shield and then try to stab with the knife.  And if two combatants have shields and swords they can block and parry and...

A few simple additions to Rimworld's melee combat system would make it far more rewarding.  Having gloves and boots to protect the extremities would also be really nice.  Additional methods to limit ranged attacks would also help; why not an area effect "shield" which prevents all ranged fire into or out of an area?  One guy with a personal shield could brave the shooting gallery, run up to a spot, drop it and turn it on, and then run back to hide behind the approaching myrmidons...

This is a large part of my "problem" with melee.

You have no real reason to use any other melee weapon other than a longsword, because it eclipses every other melee weapon. In reality, swords were used as sidearms, and to show off how wealthy you were, not because they made everything else look like shit.

1) Range

Different melee weapons should have different "lengths", and therefore be used at different ranges. If an enemy gets within that range, the weapon is useless (in real life, there are different maneuvers you can do when an opponent gets closer, like shaft-checks, pommel-strikes and whatnot, but that will be difficult to program)

Long: Spear
Medium: Longsword
Short: Mace, club, shortsword
Grappling: Knife, beer bottle

Also, an inventory system would be nice, specifically so you could carry a backup weapon (like every goddamn warrior in history. If that guy gets inside the reach of your spear, you drop it and draw a knife, not go slap-fight him.

Relatedly, there should/could be attachments for firearms, like a goddamn bayonet, so the above doesn't happen when a guy/animal comes up on your shooters

2) Shields.

Shields were weapons used by something like 99% of warrior cultures, all across the globe, for the simple reason: they fucking work. At deflecting primitive ranged weapons (arrows, javelins, stones, etc) there wasn't anything better, and they were effective in melee combat as well. Cheap and easy to produce, to the point where it was the only form of armor for most combatants pre-gunpowder, there isn't any real reason I can imagine why shields wouldn't have a place in Rimworld.

I personally have made a shield in about 2 hours. Take a 6-foot-long sapling, split in down the middle, and bend one half into a circle. Weave thin branches and reeds across the face of the shield, like a basket, then cover the face with rawhide or cloth. Take the other half of the sapling and turn it into a handle.

I've defended myself from spears, clubs and arrows using that thing.

[TheMeInTeam]

I think you (OP) are looking at the scenario wrong. You're trying to compare balance between things that were never meant to be balanced. RimWorld is not a game with balanced sub-systems. It's all about understanding the imbalances and trying to come up with a risk mitigation strategy to increase the odds of survival. So from that perspective, nothing has to be balanced against each other, it must simply have a purpose (and that purpose does not have to provide a benefit, it could be a penalty, or a mix).

I would never compare melee and shooting for balance. If you consider shooting better, I would ask "If I get a character with a high melee skill and 0 shooting skill, would I make use of them as a melee character?" If the answer is always no, then maybe that's a reason to re-evaluate melee combat, but I certainly do not think that answer is "no".

The problem is that melee is designed out on its own merit.  Anything it can do, deadfalls/turrets/guns can do better...and it completely shares the issue with sieges and mechs that many other setups.  It doesn't handle anything the *best*, and is vulnerable to the same problems other options are.

You can make some progress with it early-mid game with defeat in detail, but after that it becomes a nearly strict liability.  From a design perspective, you'd think there are situations where you would prefer it, or that investment into super high priced materials or the gimping that comes with attaching scyther blades would make for something more effectual.  Instead I can slap down a row of passive defense or kill box and outperform it with none of the situational judgment or micromanagement.

"Realism" is not a valid argument on either side of the equation.  "Losing fingers is realistic" doesn't work in Rimworld.  In real life, many weapons in this game could shoot across the entire map, and stuff like ARs and snipers past it, with better accuracy than you see at range 31, along with the obvious time scale issues and the fact that a fox can somehow beat an armed person straight up/is even willing to attack etc.  Let's not bring "realism" into this arbitrarily.

This issue is how you could alter it so that it's a viable option, without making it a crushing option.

[Wanderer_joins]

Another problem that's mentioned fairly often but bears repeating: melee attacks do not get appreciably better with increasing melee skill.  The only thing that changes, afaict, is accuracy, which is pretty good regardless, and outmoded entirely by the brawler skill.

Have you looked at the melee hit chance of a brawler vs a non brawler in the stats? ...

[Aristocat]

This would beg the question why are enemies not finishing the wounded, especially when there's no threat in sight.

Unless it's personal revenge there is no reason to. Remember raiders are here to capture colonists and steal stuff, not just mindlessly killing everything.

Manhunters and insect on other hand...

Looking at how game-y and arbitrary Rimworld is in certain aspect, maybe Tynan thinks having 'tanks' and 'damage dealers' is a good thing ??

Then why not just allow building tanks and let them tank? The personal shield shouldn't be used as ranged decoy tool, and setting shooting priority is the way to go.

[b0rsuk]

6. Melee is the only skill that can be worse than useless.
When colonists engage in a social fight, they fight in melee. A highly skilled colonist has no restraint and is likely to cause big damage to his opponent. If you're having social fights, it's advantageous to have people with low Melee skill.

[travin]

6. Melee is the only skill that can be worse than useless.
When colonists engage in a social fight, they fight in melee. A highly skilled colonist has no restraint and is likely to cause big damage to his opponent. If you're having social fights, it's advantageous to have people with low Melee skill.

That scheme plays into the discussion about pawns having offspring and the inevitable quarrels that will ensue. Due to strength, skill and the flat melee implementation they're just as likely to kill a child than just scuffle--or just disciplining them, for that matter.

[SpaceDorf]

The funny thing is, it should be another way around ..

the more skilled a fighter gets, the more he is able to control himself and the combat around him, social fights with an untrained fighter should be a lot more dangerous .. this fact is reflected nowhere in the combat system.

The Intent of the fighter is important then.
Does he want to defend himself, because some drunk attacks him,
does he want to subdue a crazed colonist without hurting him to much,
or does he want to destroy his opponent in the fastest way possible ?

[b0rsuk]

You have no real reason to use any other melee weapon other than a longsword, because it eclipses every other melee weapon. In reality, swords were used as sidearms, and to show off how wealthy you were, not because they made everything else look like shit.

You know melee damage doesn't carry over between body parts ? I just checked your claims in god mode.

Megascarab body parts:
Head, shell, elytra are 12 HP.  Head, pronotum, leg are 8 HP.  The beast has 40% sharp resistance and 10% blunt resistance, so to destroy any body part with a single hit you need to deal 20 damage, because 20 * 0.6 = 12.

Longsword has 2.50s cooldown if made of steel, plasteel has 2.0s
Spear has 2.30s and 1.84s. But can it deal 20 damage ? Good plasteel spear deals exactly 20 damage. So it's perfect for skewering megascarabs, better than longsword.
Excellent mace deals 15 damage in 1.68s, 15 * 0.9 = 13.5 (unfortunately superior mace is only 13 damage). So far excellent plasteel mace wins, but it's much less likely to make than a good plasteel spear.
A masterwork gladius deals 21 sharp damage in 1.56s, so it's even better.

A plasteel knife (normal) is the perfect squirrel killer. Their 'body' has 10 HP, the rest of parts has 8HP. 1.33s to destroy.

A warg's body is 46HP, so no weapon destroys it in a single body shot. An excellent plasteel spear destroys it in 2 hits.

Megaspider has shell of 75HP (parent node) and 15% sharp resistance. A legendary plasteel spear will kill it in 3 hits, faster than 3 hits of a longsword.

---------

My point is that especially for smaller beasts, faster weapons can be better. For larger ones, you don't want to deal a million damage but to guarantee that you're able to destroy body parts in least number of hits. Worn armor complicates this. In terms of raw DPS, yes, longswords are the best but it's misleading. You want to deal damage just above the limit. Faster hits might be advantageous because they cause more pain. I think they also train the skill faster. I mostly don't attack thrumbos in melee.

[b0rsuk]

    1.1 Melee colonies use huge amounts of medicine

A blight struck.

I planted some healroot this year, then I realized I need more and planted a few more plots. Now I have 4 healroot plots. It's no laughing matter, I used 150 herbal medicine in first year and now I have way more war beasts. I'm now down to 57 herbal and it's 13th of Sumer (growing period ends 6th of Fall)

Traders in the game are balanced around ranged combat, so they sell a couple, maybe 20 medicine. Not 50 or 100 I need. Industrial Medicine only makes wounds heal faster or surgery more likely to succeed. It won't let me treat more wounds with it - but I'm going to try, I have a drug lab set up. If I can't make it, I'm going to make journey to the friendly AI ship after I craft full sets of devilstrand apparel and plasteel longswords. But I'm not sure I can take enough food with me, and what will happen with the animals ? No mufallos, no dromedaries. Mufallos show up occasionally.



7. All hunting is done manually if you're using melee
It gets tiresome. Sometimes it's dangerous, when you're eating predators. And killing thrumbos REALLY requires good equipment and several melee fighters and/or beasts. By good equipment I mean you should have devilstrand pants and dusters, helmets, kevlar vests.

Animals don't initiate combat when you manually hunt, because you must draft and attack the victim. Then you can fall back and optionally release animals.