Research System

Started by Drabus, June 22, 2013, 03:07:35 PM

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walti921

#15
I think that most research should be practical... these guys have just crash landed and are struggling to survive they ain't going to be to worried about the broad implications of string theory.

They will want to be able to blow things up, build better shelters and defenses, produce and store enough energy to keep them out of the stone age, deal with medical issues that are bound to arise and other basic priorities for survival. I think the research system needs to reflect that.

however i do think for those that want to build a very science orientated colony some more esoteric, less day to day research with unpredictable rewards/consequences would be great. I love the idea of needing items for certain research and it makes sense empirically too, after all if you want to learn how to make an alien doom laser what better way to learn than to pick one apart and reverse engineer it.

Another thing that would be cool would be a science based trader, like a research vessel that could sell you blueprints for certain special technology or to speed up other research and maybe sell some of the advanced/weird items needed or created at higher science tiers. 

AspenShadow

Quote from: walti921 on October 06, 2013, 03:02:36 PM
Another thing that would be cool would be a science based trader, like a research vessel that could sell you blueprints for certain special technology or to speed up other research and maybe sell some of the advanced/weird items needed or created at higher science tiers.

Liking the idea. So far as I've seen in the Alpha we have farming vessels, weaponry vessels, slavers and a mixture of the three. It would be nice to have a scientific-vessel though, atm the Alpha's research system is very early and manufacturing is almost non-existent this would have to be added after the rehaul of the research tree. We've already got a fairly established suggestion of the RimWorlds sometimes having ruins from an advanced alien civilization on them that would spawn otherwise unreachable research projects. Still another way to add in unique research to be bought is via allying with various factions that may or may not be future content. *shrug*

AspenShadow

Quick thought for late game, what are people's opinions on eventually mastering Terraforming?
It's high-tech, semi-theoretical (in this fictional future it's been done before) and yet is STILL something a shipwrecked colonist trying to survive would invest in.

Gargrant

Quote from: AspenShadow on October 06, 2013, 01:33:24 PM
Once again pointing out that crash-landed colonists with scraps won't be performing theoretical research except for one-offs like new archaeology/materials/fauna on their planet.

I know I started with that distinction, but my point was that what is DIY to 1 person is probably 'theoretical' to another.  RimWorld includes, by design, people from a very wide set of cultures and technological backgrounds.  A knight is going to find an automobile incredibly impressive, and even with a schematic won't even have the first clue how to get started.  Someone that has seen hex wrenches, wire strippers, and pipe fitters before is going to proceed much more rapidly.

And the only important game-play difference I suggested  between the two classes is that the colonists don't know how long theoretical research is going to take.  They can still undertake it.

AspenShadow

Quote from: AspenShadow on October 06, 2013, 01:33:24 PM
Perhaps to add some semblance of realism to this Theoretical-DIY debate without over-complicating it, we could simply add a system that means along with the random seed that generates what research you have access to learning upon crashing, the topics available are also dependent on numerical Researcher-Skill value or the highest-tech background?

I tried to address issues with that point here: ^^
If you only have a team of medieval-background colonists then at first they'll only be able to access technology from their understanding.

Though on the Manufacturing system thread we've already got a debate under way as to the pros of everyone starting off at the lowest tech level and building their way up, thus excusing most of the issues with understanding as even a serf (who can't research anyway) after enough time researching would understand the mechanics of a car.

Not to mention that throughout the game new colonists drop in on you or are converted from raiders/slaves all the time and odds are one of them will be from a world advanced enough to understand these DIY projects on a conceptual level.
Though it does raise the amusing point of why three unsupervised serfs were on a high-tech spaceship in the Outer Rim in the 1st place? Hmmm... starting to build a picture of why they may have crashed.

Pheanox

I definitely like many of the points brought up in this topic.  The idea of most research being DIY-style research where the time is spent looking up a read only Wikipedia on how things work makes a lot of sense.  It makes it reasonable as to why they know what to research. 

The idea of iterative research is very good as well, and always gives your researcher something to do.  Having to make that conscious choice to have them not be productive with other colony matters with something to research makes choices more interesting, and promotes a risk/reward sort of gameplay.

Theoretical research is definitely something that would be cool though!  I don't know if it should be only limited to someone that was a scientist, though they should definitely have the highest boost to it, and have the most favorable outcomes.  Theoretical research, however, is generally not done unguided.  There is an end goal.  So if theoretical research is added, with random research rewarded, it should be divided in to categories.  The previously mentioned ones work great.  Biology, Physics, Chemistry, and Humanities.  This could result in something minor or major, and be dependent on the science level the researcher.

Gargrant

Quote from: AspenShadow on October 06, 2013, 03:37:08 PM
Not to mention that throughout the game new colonists drop in on you or are converted from raiders/slaves all the time and odds are one of them will be from a world advanced enough to understand these DIY projects on a conceptual level.
I think that's a valuable possible story possibility.  Your band of untutored serfs manage to capture a lone and hapless 'pirate'.  (Perhaps they even invented, for their own personal comfort, the pirate part).  The captured pirate is the only one that understands all this crazy tech around them.  The pirate transitions from being their captured prisoner to one of the leaders of the colony.

I think it also raises the possibility that colonies 'blessed' with high science characters may be aggressively head-hunted by other tribes, with more or less forceful means of coercion.

Quote from: AspenShadow on October 06, 2013, 03:37:08 PM
Though it does raise the amusing point of why three unsupervised serfs were on a high-tech spaceship in the Outer Rim in the 1st place? Hmmm... starting to build a picture of why they may have crashed.

Yes, it is one fun possibility.  ;)  Another possibility is that space-pirates boarded their vessel and cut off air to all the passenger decks in the attack - our small band of colonists, being menials, had been stored in stowage, and thus managed to escape.

The story possibilities are endless.

Spike

Quote from: AspenShadow on October 06, 2013, 03:37:08 PM
If you only have a team of medieval-background colonists then at first they'll only be able to access technology from their understanding.

Perhaps another area of research (or manufacturing, or some kind of "colony advancement") could be Education?   Actually, if we'd look at the idea of research topics of Biology, Physics, Chemistry, and Humanities, then that would be part of Humanities.  Perhaps that could even be used (player choice) to change the colonists long-term goals from Escape to Colonizing - instead of getting off planet, they are woo'd to the idea of this being the new home, and lets improve it as much as possible.

Although... some sci-fi books (Earthweb) had a premise of durable e-book/computers being dropped all over the world, that would basically teach an illiterate Third World individual from the ground up - reading, programming, etc.  Kind of like that, eh, self-teaching pc that was proposed a couple of years ago.  So the idea of colonists in-game working up their tech-level isn't too far out there.

British

Quote from: AspenShadow on October 06, 2013, 03:11:32 PM
We've already got a fairly established suggestion of the RimWorlds sometimes having ruins from an advanced alien civilization on them that would spawn otherwise unreachable research projects.
Just like having an end-game, I personally don't mind this idea, as long as it's optional (a specific "Alien-related" AI, perhaps ?).
I do like the prospect of having our survivors managing their colony without excessive "outside" help, slowly climbing the tree of knowledge, and not bypassing steps.
And the next game, I'll enjoy digging for forgotten-alien stuff ;D

walti921

#24
I think alien ruins and stuff should be default personally after all with this  type of game the variety of stories and not knowing whats going to happen next are a large part of the appeal.

I think your AI storyteller choice will inform the pacing/difficulty anyways so if your playing Cassandra classic its unlikely you will find some ancient alien ruin teeming with xenomorphs from the get go, or get some ridiculously overpowered weapon/tech without significant work being done to acquire it.

Maybe Tynan could put in another story teller for people who still want a challenge but want a relatively "normal" or predictable experience, Victor vanilla, Barry boring? Or wait for it..... Larry Low-tech.

AspenShadow

#25
Quote from: British on October 06, 2013, 05:24:14 PM
Quote from: AspenShadow on October 06, 2013, 03:11:32 PM
We've already got a fairly established suggestion of the RimWorlds sometimes having ruins from an advanced alien civilization on them that would spawn otherwise unreachable research projects.
Just like having an end-game, I personally don't mind this idea, as long as it's optional (a specific "Alien-related" AI, perhaps ?).
I do like the prospect of having our survivors managing their colony without excessive "outside" help, slowly climbing the tree of knowledge, and not bypassing steps.
And the next game, I'll enjoy digging for forgotten-alien stuff ;D

Ah that's a misunderstanding. I didn't mean the alien ruins gave you advanced technology or even access to advanced technology options in research. I meant they give you a lump-sum bonus to a certain research project you're already on, or you can research the ruins as a SUPER-Project for a nice piece of technology only your colony in all the galaxy will have.
You'll still need to reach a level of understanding necessary to interpret and reverse-engineer this ancient race's science before you can use/complete the research project.

Lol sorry I already bagsed Barry for Brutal Barry!  :'(

Back to seriousness:
Back to the thread topic now, I've been rewatching Quill's video of RimWorld pre-alpha and he mentions the notion of Research-Queuing. Yay or nay?

British

Quote from: AspenShadow on October 06, 2013, 05:38:37 PM
I meant they give you a lump-sum bonus to a certain research project you're already on, or you can research the ruins as a SUPER-Project for a nice piece of technology only your colony in all the galaxy will have.
I still put that under the "external help" label ::)
And just because there's no alien-related events doesn't mean it has to be boring either.

AspenShadow

Quote from: British on October 06, 2013, 05:51:01 PM
Quote from: AspenShadow on October 06, 2013, 05:38:37 PM
I meant they give you a lump-sum bonus to a certain research project you're already on, or you can research the ruins as a SUPER-Project for a nice piece of technology only your colony in all the galaxy will have.
I still put that under the "external help" label ::)
And just because there's no alien-related events doesn't mean it has to be boring either.

Alright, point. When put back to me like that I have no choice but to concede.

And I like the normal game run-through too! Building up from nothing on the sweat of your sprite's forehead and the strength of their 2D back that you never see at the same time as their front. Memories...

But in the second play I want to find something weird that surprises me after I thought I knew everything from my perfectionist 1st run ;).

SpaceEatingTrex

Quote from: Tynan on September 16, 2013, 12:06:42 PMRepeatable research is an interesting idea, definitely a possibility. It would simplify some things.

Watching a RimWorld stream today research came up and the general consensus seemed to be that research goes by too fast, and after everything is researched there's no use for the research skill. It seems like these issues could be addressed by having research more paced and repeatable research respectively.

Furthermore, the idea of separate tech trees for each topic came up. I think simple tech trees could add some depth to the research system, without making it too complicated. Combined with repeatable research I think that would make for a good research system.

Here's an MSPaint mockup:



A number of good ideas have already been mentioned in this thread, but I'd be wary of making research too complicated. What ideas could add depth to the research system without over-complicating it?

Hawkido

#29
Quote from: Hypolite on September 16, 2013, 02:00:28 AM
From what I undestand about the real-world research :

First is the fundamental research has no predictable goal nor time, but produces raw discoveries once in a while. People assigned to research should be creative.

After that, raw discoveries can be exploited by engineers, who work toward a known goal for a more prodictable time. It produces inventions that have a direct outcome. People assigned to invention should be equally creative and technical.

Yes I like the "Pure Research"/ "Applied Research" model... I have seen it in a few games and loved the random element.  The research should also be slowed down.  I posted an idea about off screen expeditions returning with happiness trinkets or horrors that could also happen on them... perhaps trinkets for research ideas could be among them.
http://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=38.msg3853#msg3853