Alternative/Replacement for Sappers Strategy - Vehicles & scouts

Started by Mr Demon, October 12, 2015, 09:42:09 AM

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Agree? Don't agree? We all decide, let us decide.

Yes. I agree.
7 (63.6%)
I agree with scouts, not vehicles.
1 (9.1%)
I agree with vehicles, not scouts.
2 (18.2%)
I don't agree with either. Makes it easier/harder.
0 (0%)
Other opinion. I will be in comments/replies.
1 (9.1%)

Total Members Voted: 11

Mr Demon

What i am suggestion as a replacement for Sappers strategy, is this idea, Vehicles and Scouts. This idea is influenced by a Mad Max theme, focused on factions with rudimentary knowledge, capable of making simple vehicles, as a simple and fun approach of introducing vehicles.

Please comment. It makes all the difference, to make this concept effective.

Basic idea is, scouts will be present, analyzing terrain, base, defenses, people, equipment, etc., and the Vehicles will be a ramming device, which will bust through a entrance/wall, resulting in the vehicle inoperable, and the survivors, provided with combat cover. Failure of a scout, means the vehicle may act erratically or simply fail.

This will be acted as the block remover, as a replacement for the sapper, which has the potential to do far worse damage (ie due to shape of the digging, difficult to fill up).

How does this fit into the game canonically?
      Well this is a planet/wasteland, with many perils and limited resources, but people are smart enough to create cryptopods, spaceships, and personal shielding devices right? So savage factions creating rudimentary vehicles should be a pinch, and what is better than having a ram or explosive you say? Why a big heavy hunk of metal, welded together to this sturdy steel frame, travelling 100km/hr, to create a nice fat hole, and some cover for your raider buddies.

     Now I speak this is a good idea, as creating junk vehicles should be relatively easy, you get all the slag you can, weld it to a sturdy frame, add an engine and you have yourself a bone-afied badass chunk of metal, hurled at your enemy. Easy, doesn't chew up your limited resources, and it makes your enemy's like a living hell. Get back to your wastelander sense of thinking, think like a raider, and think "why make small holes to sneak in, when you can make a big boom, and announce 'WE'RE HERE!!!' to them".

This approach also emphasizes on two things.
      - Raiders making rudimentary vehicles from limited supplies.
      - Base analysis for enemy raid parties affecting, a effective or ineffective raid party.






Concept Features

  • The Vehicle
        The vehicle will be the precursor to the oncoming raid.
        The vehicle will have a 4 max. occupants: Driver, Passenger, 2 passengers hanging on vehicle
            There is a chance the one or both of the hanging passengers, will fall off and be injured/killed in crash
            There is a chance the vehicle will succeed or fail, based on the thickness of the wall, material/durability, and ramming speed.
              - Ramming speed will also affect condition of the vehicle prior to ram, as well as occupants condition

            Success Scenario
               The vehicle will ram through the defined blocks, leaving the vehicle in a define condition, as well as its occupants.
                The vehicle will be inoperable and provide combat cover, for following raid.
            Failure Scenario
               The vehicle will ram the wall/entrance, causing a moderate amount of damage, resulting in most of the occupants
                being injured/killed.

           


  • The Scout
        The scout will provide reconnaissance, prior to the initial raid
        1-2 Scouts Max.
            The scout will test a number of weaknesses
                    There are:
                       Wall density (eg shooting at it, penetration), Turret defense (eg Visually, Audibly by sound of gears, and etc),
                       Trap density in area (visually unless changed), and prospecting mountain base size (ie Listening to mountain wall,
                         for hums of machines on other side, whistling of wind through cracks, density of the wall if hit)
            At the time of the raid, the scout will also follow after the vehicle, whilst the majority raid party holds back.
                The scout will observe then return to report if the ram was success or failure.
                Upon success, the raid party attacks, failure results in calculation of risk & reward, if no scout returns, the party will
                  delay its attack (I say attack, due to it is unknown to the party, if it is a success or failure regardless). 

            Success Scenario (ie escaped with/without full reconnaissance)
                The base defenses will be analysed, and the vehicle will ram the best designated place. Reducing the chances of failure.
            Failure Scenario (ie Killed/scared off before full reconnaissance)
                The base will be analysed visually, by 1 block depth, and visual appearance (being wooden, metal or rock)
                  will decide where the vehicle will ram, with minimal chance the vehicle will ram the mountain wall.
                  Increasing the chance of failure. Also the ramming speed will likely be higher than average requirement on material.




  • The Raiders
        Now considering these raiders are resourceful enough to obtain a vehicle, these can be named a certain raider group,
          and since their a more forward attack group, not a bunker down group, it is fitting they behave as such, and possess the correct equipment.

          1 raider will likely possess a Single Use RPG
                The raider will either spawn inside the raid party or vehicle.
                    This raider is only likely to spawn in medium-highly equip raiders.
                The raider will target structures, to create an entrance or target a threatening turret
                    The raider will unlikely target a person, due to the difficulty of hitting such a small target.



Now for the cons and questions

      It discourages outside base building.

This is why I would enforce the scout, as this defines where the vehicle is likely to ram, and upon the vehicle not know where to ram, it will hit a random area, based on what it sees visually, resulting in a Failure or a Success.


      Why would they orbital drop a vehicle, just to ram it?

This is a good question, as it is because they won't. The focus of this concept is faction/colony tactic fighting, between each other, as it seems more plausible as a strategy, for modern colonies, with no flight/spaceflight capabilities. It seems more of a effective strategy, due to how, mining is a long arduous task, and rather tiring, unless you possess a device that does much of the mining for you, to drill in to the base, this is why i think of them more as a infiltrator strategy/class.

- Thanks Betaspectre


      Why would they waste a good car? why not transport, and transport siege rams?

This is true, and likely smart for raiders.

What I am suggesting though is the introduction into it, as a foothold to get vehicles in i suppose, and using junk vehicles as a cheap concept, seems like a good choice.

It has to be remembered these people, capable of space flight, and have to use what little resources they have, and the optimal choice is to create a 'Junk Car', which is essentially a big hunk of metal, going 100Km/hr, into a wooden/steel/rock/etc wall.

Transport vehicles are a more obvious choice, but the vehicle must be sturdy, durable, well maintained, and will last two trips, with raided loot. This would be more for the well stocked and advanced factions, but for now, once off junk cars seem like a great approach.

Also well to note, the crashed vehicle is now resources for you, so raids can now go both ways.

- Thanks Betaspectre




This is my concept for replacing the sappers.

What i think would make them more interesting however, as a infiltrator class, who is sneaky, and rather incapacitate each enemy he encounters in his attack.

I hope people like this idea, and if you do, please share it!
If you really do agree, and you see yourself that there is lots of agree, please post this in the "Frequent Suggestion Topic" Topic, AND don't forget to Check if someone else have posted this before you do.


TL;DR
Vehicles as rams, Scouts increasing/decreasing success/failure chances, RPGs, making the devs a living hell for a new idea.


P.S. I messed up my first try making this, lost my first attempt at this topic, and oh my gawd it was figuratively painful. There is one aspect i have missed/lost due to it, so if i over look anything please tell me.

Mr Demon


BetaSpectre

Why would you orbital drop a vehicle only to ram it?
I think that Sappers make sense in universe, and exist for a good purpose. Though IMO there ought to be traps that can kill sappers without them deciding to avoid em. IRL we had toxin clouds that seeped into Sapper tunnels.
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                           TO WAR WE GO

Mr Demon

It is not orbital drop, this is more for factions on the world, orbital drop is more of the pirates or people off world, anyway, many enemies you face, come from off screen, not orbital drop.

BetaSpectre

Vehicles would be more interesting as transports, as in after a raid colonists can capture then to trade/contact with local towns. Basically using vehicles to create caravans.

Its more likely that the vehicles would have siege rams, which would act more or less like sappers. No one would want to waste a good car. Especially on a random shack in the middle of no where with 10 guys huddled around a fire.

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                           TO WAR WE GO

Mr Demon

#5
This is true.

My interpretation though, is just as a current replacement, upon the time they choose to integrate vehicles, that is their choose, but this is just for a scrap wasteland, and this tactic is for raider parties.

I am only suggesting this concept as the 'Alternative', and as these cars are junk cars, merely to bust through the defenses and create mediocre cover for the raiders, this seems best.

I keep throwing your comments into the concept too ^^ helps refine the idea.

Dante King

I would say have different variants of the car, say a reinforced car that has a weapon turret on the back and has a chance of surviving the crash, and will then fire on whoever is in the room it crashed into. Or a incendiary explosive car that sets the entire room on fire and blows things up in a sizable radius

Mr Demon

#7
Quote from: Dante King on October 13, 2015, 03:55:17 AM
I would say have different variants of the car, say a reinforced car that has a weapon turret on the back and has a chance of surviving the crash, and will then fire on whoever is in the room it crashed into. Or a incendiary explosive car that sets the entire room on fire and blows things up in a sizable radius

A reinforced car with a weapon turret, would have to be a more advanced colony or raider group of mercenaries. This is also something that would be far down the track even if vehicles were implemented.

It is also well to note, people on the planet will either have a limited or plentiful stockpile of resources, which they would have to deliberate on how to use effectively. A Junk car being pieces of unusable metal and large chunks, bound together to the car frame, and a simple engine, to create a rudimentary car, but effective ram.

This is what i have contemplated, that would be the most likely and logical decision for this.


Vagabond

Hello,

I voted "other opinion". I've always been of the mind that NPC human aggressors are way to plentiful for there to be no FTL travel. Mechanoids are a semi-interesting diversion from this, but again, they have no FTL travel.

Enemy human factions need to have some sort of population tracking and more advanced AI to perform more tactically. They need to judge, based on their resources as a faction, whether it would be a good idea to attack you or not. Again: No FTL travel.

Most NPCs have to travel very long distances by either walking, animal mounts, or maybe even vehicles of some sort. The issue being that if their raid fails, their colony loses important resources for their success - namely manpower, supplies, and transportation.

My issue with your plan is that it assumes that said faction is willing to intentionally ruin a useful means of transportation  just to attack a colony that doesn't interact with the outside world. Said transportation would be better served as a means to trade or transport goods.

So, in short, the issue isn't really the sappers. The issue is that humans act mindless in their interaction with your colony - they are immersion breaking.

We need to make interaction more meaningful with human npcs. Replace them with a more permanent antagonist that is more sensible to slay en masse. Sadly, I don't think a large Mechanoid population is sensible either - they should be stronger and more troublesome, but much less plentiful and come in smaller groups - like the ones in hibernation mode we find on map in undiscovered areas. They are lost individuals that didn't make it to the ship fast enough when their buddies left. As mentioned in another topic, it'd be interesting to see some that are in various stages of being jury rigged/piecemealed together.

Next, I'd like to take a look at proven solutions to the need for an enemy that has no end.

Xenomorph (Alien Franchise)- A colonist stumbles into a hidden area and goes missing... Only to stumble back long enough to have something explode out his belly trying to find a place to hide. If it's not found and exterminated, it molts growing into a warrior that goes on a mission to exterminate you colony.

Arachnid (Starship Troopers Franchise)- A bug that integrates itself with the planet...another that lays eggs.. another that is carried around as a non-combative force commander... All supported by several different bugs that perform different functions as infantry, aerial skirmishers, tanks, siege artillery, and parasitic mind controlling symbiotes. As a highly mobile force, these things will make non-believing colonists pray.

Bioraptor (Riddick Franchise)- Having a sink hole form near your base and several of these things pop out while your colonists sleep would be scary - especially if night was actually dark and these guys were semi-translucent when in a dark area ...You can't see them, and your colonist can't see them until they enter a area with at least a little light.

Zerg (Starcraft Franchise)- The Zerg share many similarities with the Arachnid, but with more focus on sustainment. They also have the creep that covers the ground...

In short, a quickly reproducing biological hive-minded species would be much more suitable as a long term enemy on a Rimworld rather than human foes, as humans are in limited supply (and their supplies are in limited supply).

So. . . With that said, I suggest that instead of looking at individual current units or roles, we take the whole and consider how to best make this a more immersive experience that doesn't ask us to stretch our suspension of disbelief so thin that we grasp at the most heinous of culprits to focus our frustration.

Cheers,
Michael

Mr Demon

Quote from: Vagabond on October 15, 2015, 06:14:29 PM

Most NPCs have to travel very long distances by either walking, animal mounts, or maybe even vehicles of some sort. The issue being that if their raid fails, their colony loses important resources for their success - namely manpower, supplies, and transportation.

My issue with your plan is that it assumes that said faction is willing to intentionally ruin a useful means of transportation  just to attack a colony that doesn't interact with the outside world. Said transportation would be better served as a means to trade or transport goods.

So, in short, the issue isn't really the sappers. The issue is that humans act mindless in their interaction with your colony - they are immersion breaking.


True, I am only speaking in term of disposable vehicles, I only emphasis on "Junk cars" as it is what it is, a Junk car.

but to get more specific
   - the metal frame is the only strong part of the car
   - the engine is rudimentary, ready to blow, unless they are a well stocked faction
   - the armor is merely random sources of scrap.
   - It is only considered easy, as it is a one way ride.

This vehicle is ideal for factions with mediocre knowledge, source of lots of scrap metal, some fuel, and the sacrifice of material, is worth attacking the enemy, meaning this would be mid-way raids.

It is also well to know, why risk animals, when you have this hunk of metal, and they quite figuratively consider it just that, as it is the easy option, and cheap.
But if this were a more well armed, supplied, and knowledgeable faction, Yes, they would possess vehicles they would prefer not to singe-use it, acting as transporters, or a turret outside the base.

Much of this concept influence is Mad Max or similar, as that is what this game resembles if you take note. This of course is very one sided idea, as this doesn't apply to all factions, but rather more savage factions or groups that turned savage.

As for the rest of what you said, Yes, improved AI, improved enemies, and the mechanoids having something unique like Reapers, assimilating colonists, would do the game good, except all I am suggesting is this concept, as sooner or later vehicles will be thrown in, so why not have a very Mad Max idea, be the starter for that.