Let's talk about melee combat

Started by cultist, April 24, 2016, 08:35:29 AM

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Boston

In real life, there is a principle (forget the name) where, if the attacker (armed with a melee weapon) is within a certain number of feet, no matter what your ranged weapon, they will still have time to get in and hit you at least once before they die.

Bastobasto

You need to be incredebly strong to take a long sword with one hand.And it will be less powerfull than one hand.

Vaporisor

Quote from: Bastobasto on April 27, 2016, 03:43:19 PM
You need to be incredebly strong to take a long sword with one hand.And it will be less powerfull than one hand.

Well, If I was setting it up, I would have inventory tweaked.  Main hand and off hand for inventory, then a sidearm.  So when you go to equip, you select where you want it.  Two hand weapons, shotguns, etc of course take both.  In terms of making use of sidearms, you have to give the order of melee/ranged and then they 'swap' with a click and a pause like equipping.  If your sniper gets engaged by a melee person, then they are too busy defending themselves to put down the gun unless you tell him to drop the rifle.

So for example, your longsword user?  You might have a pistol or pdw sidearm.  So give the 'fire' command by clicking on the gun will pause to holster longsword and pull out the pdw.

If you have a guy with say two pistols and a knife sidearm, then if you give the melee command, he will put away the primary hand weapon to pull out the knife.

lastly can add a shield.  So your guy could in theory be a full on shield.  Two shields with the energy shield, and a short sword in holster ^.^  I would love shields,  tweak your guys different ways.  A heavy melee guy might have main hand shield with a second melee in offhand to differentiate between engaging a melee user or a gunner.

Tough part would be the AI though.  In the case of the AI, I think it could stay fun without needing the swap.
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Negocromn

physical shields make absolutely no sense in the rimworld universe Vaporiser, you use shields to block projectiles that are not bullets and to fight in battle formations, there's no reason why one of your colonists would ever want one or even think about building one (not that longswords are much better lol, but still)

Vaporisor

Until you get to larger caliber they can be effective, though that would be heavy.  Sides, this is rimworld.  My theory, if you can make an armored vest, why not a shield the same way?  A kevlar weave over a lightweight frame or similar?  Plasteel shield that can stop bullets but that said, would degrade over time.  Is rimworld, have fun ^.^
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Boston

Quote from: Negocromn on April 27, 2016, 10:41:32 PM
physical shields make absolutely no sense in the rimworld universe Vaporiser, you use shields to block projectiles that are not bullets and to fight in battle formations, there's no reason why one of your colonists would ever want one or even think about building one (not that longswords are much better lol, but still)

What are you talking about? Shields make perfect sense.

Hand-held shields deflect projectile missile weapons (arrows, javelins, sling-stones, etc) and melee weapons.  What is the faction that 1) doesn't use guns, and 2) actually fights with melee weapons?

Oh, right.

Vaporisor

Quote from: Boston on April 27, 2016, 11:05:07 PM

What are you talking about? Shields make perfect sense.

Hand-held shields deflect projectile missile weapons (arrows, javelins, sling-stones, etc) and melee weapons.  What is the faction that 1) doesn't use guns, and 2) actually fights with melee weapons?

Oh, right.

And with the changes to things like adding infestations, and other perks to staying above ground, I have been actually having quite a bit of fun with my isolated buildings play I have been doing at the moment.  Urban warfare so to speak.  Gets close combat quite a bit actually.  I am actually starting to get people more trained and equipped for secondary melee to protect my gunners.
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Mathenaut

Unless you're working with heavy caliber, alot of munitions won't cut through steel. Don't even get started on a good ballistic shield, there's only so much in RimWorld that would even crack that.

Negocromn

Quote from: Boston on April 27, 2016, 11:05:07 PM
Quote from: Negocromn on April 27, 2016, 10:41:32 PM
physical shields make absolutely no sense in the rimworld universe Vaporiser, you use shields to block projectiles that are not bullets and to fight in battle formations, there's no reason why one of your colonists would ever want one or even think about building one (not that longswords are much better lol, but still)

What are you talking about? Shields make perfect sense.

Hand-held shields deflect projectile missile weapons (arrows, javelins, sling-stones, etc) and melee weapons.  What is the faction that 1) doesn't use guns, and 2) actually fights with melee weapons?

Oh, right.

Yeah I didn't express myself so well there, I know there are societies of multiple tech levels in the scenario.

Quote from: Vaporisor on April 27, 2016, 10:53:03 PM
Until you get to larger caliber they can be effective, though that would be heavy.  Sides, this is rimworld.  My theory, if you can make an armored vest, why not a shield the same way?  A kevlar weave over a lightweight frame or similar?  Plasteel shield that can stop bullets but that said, would degrade over time.  Is rimworld, have fun ^.^

Quote from: Mathenaut on April 28, 2016, 03:24:19 AM
Unless you're working with heavy caliber, alot of munitions won't cut through steel. Don't even get started on a good ballistic shield, there's only so much in RimWorld that would even crack that.

The same could be said about a full set of medieval plate armor, but why would any of your colonists even consider medieval plate armor when they have easy access to cheap simple modern combat vests that are much more practical and, for most combat situations, superior? And then if they want another level of protection there's power armor.

Physical shields fall exactly in the same spot, why bother with them when Dune-style personal shields are everywhere? Why invest resources in archaic and cumbersome equipment when you can easily have something that is much better in every possible way?

I know I'm being a little dramatic here, but I can't think of a single situation where you'd want a physical shield when a personal shield is available. I mean, you can even use them as cover for your shooters, they have all bases covered lol.

b0rsuk

To be fair Dune-style shields aren't everywhere, you still can't craft them.

Pro tip: if you're tired of your shooters getting tied in melee, invest in power claws (NOT scyther blades). For a marginal manipulation penalty, you get a massive melee damage boost, especially if you install two. For good result you need a colonist who is good both at ranged and melee combat. Don't think twice about it if you have a medieval lord or another combat specialist.

Mathenaut

Power armor isn't everywhere either.

There is plenty of room and purpose for practical melee protections, especially since the means to get around them are infrequent.

Negocromn

#26
I never said power armor is everywhere, I said that if people want to bother with armor beyond ballistic vests they can consider it. And it is pretty much an unrelated topic anyway.

Personal shields on the other hand are, yes, everywhere. The fact that you can't craft it doesn't really change much, you couldn't craft guns until recently either and they were just as ubiquitous.

In our current tech level, people don't use melee weapons except as a last resort, and the rare shields you ever see employed are used as gunfire cover in special situations. In the loose future tech level of your spacers, melee is brought back because of personal shields, so it's not even about them replacing physical shields, physical shields were long extinct and trashed, they wouldn't exist either way.

As I said, give me one situation where a shield might be practical and make sense.

AllenWL

Quote from: Vaporisor on April 27, 2016, 11:40:48 PM
Quote from: Boston on April 27, 2016, 11:05:07 PM

What are you talking about? Shields make perfect sense.

Hand-held shields deflect projectile missile weapons (arrows, javelins, sling-stones, etc) and melee weapons.  What is the faction that 1) doesn't use guns, and 2) actually fights with melee weapons?

Oh, right.
And with the changes to things like adding infestations, and other perks to staying above ground, I have been actually having quite a bit of fun with my isolated buildings play I have been doing at the moment.  Urban warfare so to speak.  Gets close combat quite a bit actually.  I am actually starting to get people more trained and equipped for secondary melee to protect my gunners.
Yep, with proper base-building, melee and short-range weapons can be devastating.
That masterwork sniper rifle won't be very useful against a guy with a longsword jumping out at you from a corner. Or through a door.

Though I do agree that melee-vs-melee needs to be improved. Currently, it's a very luck-based thing. You send your best melee guy armed with the best stuff, and pray he manages to hit something vital before the enemy hits something vital, or just give up on melee and give him a gun.

Quote from: Negocromn on April 28, 2016, 11:14:50 PM
I never said power armor is everywhere, I said that if people want to bother with armor beyond ballistic vests they can consider it. And it is pretty much an unrelated topic anyway.

Personal shields on the other hand are, yes, everywhere. The fact that you can't craft it doesn't really change much, you couldn't craft guns until recently either and they were just as ubiquitous.

In our current tech level, people don't use melee weapons except as a last resort, and the rare shields you ever see employed are used as gunfire cover in special situations. In the loose tech level of your spacers, melee is brought back because of personal shields, so it's not even about them replacing physical shields, physical shields were long extinct and trashed, they wouldn't exist either way.

As I said, give me one situation where your a shield might be practical and make sense.
In real life or in-game?
The problem is, any shield that can stop a gun is bound to be way too heavy to lug around, and probably still not stand up to the really high-caliber stuff. Or explosives. You'll have better luck just hiding behind a wall or something. Well, unless you know your enemies don't have the high-caliber stuff or explosives.

In-game wise, a shield physical would be better than a personal shield simply because it doesn't 'break' and have to recharge every so often. It might not last as long overall, it might not block as much, but it's still better because you can count on it to last at least for the battle. It would also block point-blank shots and melee attacks, both things the personal shield can't block. And of course, if you get attacked by giant mutant insects, something to keep between them and you that isn't just body armor would be nice, won't it?

Anyways, even if somewhat unrealistic, I think melee could use some more features.
Currently, melee is much neglected, kinda weird, and very random. And it has little if any, in the ways of a 'middle ground'
I mean, I can guess why it's in the game, but it's rather a niche thing, and because it's so vulnerable to large numbers, and anything with range when faced from what, five tiles away? And mechanoids/large animals. Can't forget those.
On the other hand, when viable, melee completely wrecks everything. Three guys with steel swords is actually enough to easily beat a raid of 10 pirates if in a good enough position.

Trying to use melee in any way without having the melee units slaugthered neary every time requires you to pretty much
1: Just use them as guards
2: Build your base/killzone in such a way that any raider in the area can be reached in less than 5 tiles, allowing melee units to ambush everyone.
3: Use large amounts of time micromanaging fights, having melee units move between cover between shots, covering for them with ranged units, and crossing fingers.
4: Get them the best quality personal shield and power armor.
or
5: Have as many animals who have 'obedience' as possible assigned to them.

Mathenaut

Quote from: Negocromn on April 28, 2016, 11:14:50 PM
..physical shields were long extinct and trashed, they wouldn't exist either way.

Except that this isn't true. Especially in modern times. You can't find a swat or riot team in the modern-most parts of the world that doesn't employ shields.

Another case of reality being unrealistic for some people.

Boston

Quote from: Mathenaut on April 29, 2016, 06:11:40 PM
Quote from: Negocromn on April 28, 2016, 11:14:50 PM
..physical shields were long extinct and trashed, they wouldn't exist either way.

Except that this isn't true. Especially in modern times. You can't find a swat or riot team in the modern-most parts of the world that doesn't employ shields.

Another case of reality being unrealistic for some people.

In real life, actual physical shields are actually quite easy to build. If you can make a basket (itself quite simple), then you can make a shield.

Take a sapling as tall as you are, cut it down and split it in half. Take the bark from one half and use it to tie the half in a circle. Weave things like reeds, pliable twigs or bunched grass in and around the circle. Support this weaving with pieces of the other half of the sapling.

In about an hour of work, you have a shield that, once it is dry, is lightweight and will deflect spears, clubs and even arrows, if held at the proper angle.